Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

What if the bench show program did have a class for show dogs that was separate from the regular bench show classes. Then the bench show winner could show against the non-hunting show class winner for best of breed.
Total Dog points for winning the bench show AND top ten show points for winning the overall best of breed. 2 programs in one. Would recognize the top 10 total dogs AND the top 10 show dogs.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Millersburg,Ohio
Posts: 1976

Do you really think many people would show a dog they hunted that day against a dog that is show bred n not hunted? Not a chance.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

Dan, that's a ideal I said 2 yrs ago. Dogs get there all star points then offer possible extra points for bench competition. Partisipation points and credit for placement. Stop following NHBA. Call it the Total Dog, not All star. Include it with hunts. Don't seperate them. Akc is junk in my book..Don't follow them.promote the Total Dog I have no problem showing my hunting dog.

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

Last edited by Todd Eddington on 08-09-2016 at 05:41 PM

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

Dan, that's a ideal I said 2 yrs ago. Dogs get there all star points then offer possible extra points for bench competition. Partisipation points and credit for placement. Stop following NHBA. Call it the Total Dog, not All star. Include it with hunts. Don't seperate them. Akc is junk in my book..Don't follow them.promote the Total Dog

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

Would need to have something built into a total dog program to insure the winner is a total dog.

In order to receive total dog acknowledgement it would need to be a Grand in the hunt by the end of the calendar year. Maybe let a dog be eligible the year it finishes it's hunt CH. Any subsequent year it would need to be a Grand in the Hunt to be considered a total dog.

The show dogs that do not run in the hunt would have no effect on total dog points. The total dog bench show winner would compete against the show class winner at the end for top 10 show points only. The emphasis and prizes should be much greater for the total dog winner. The top show winners could also be acknowledged.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

No need to put limit on dogs that don't earn field points, they won't be a final threat to a real total dog that hunts.maybe have 100 points in field to be eligible for Total Dog. I say 100 points cause that's what the points are to champion in field, everyone (now's that 1 st place can be hard to get.Total Dog.Award dogs that place with extra show points. Watch the shows fill up and be more competitive.And save the Total Dog

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

No need to put limit on dogs that don't earn field points, they won't be a final threat to a real total dog that hunts.maybe have 100 points in field to be eligible for Total Dog. I say 100 points cause that's what the points are to champion in field, everyone (now's that 1 st place can be hard to get.Total Dog.Award dogs that place with extra show points. Watch the shows fill up and be more competitive.And save the Total Dog

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

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Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Greensburg in
Posts: 29

The shows will not increase in numbers until the hunt requirement is removed. It is simple as that. If you get butt hurt sorry. If you want more dogs at the "show" because that is what it is. Then get rid of the hunt requirement. If you want the same 3 to 5 dogs in the show then don't. Numbers don't lie. I have seen nothing but the show numbers fall over the years. Another issue is poor show education. I have went up to judges and asked, "how many points are different parts of the dog worth." Have gotten the deer in the headlights look. Really, you are judging this show and you can not tell me the point values of your evaluation. I am not talking about at club shows, at the world, nationals. I have seen some really good judges to. But most are very poorly educated. There is more to a dog then feet, top line, and head. If there was a group of individuals willing to explain. Show judges what they are suppose to be looking for. It will always be the same and nothing will change or grow unless steps are taking for a changing time. Hate to point out the truth but the show world is increasing and the hunt world is decreasing. Fewer spots to hunt and people having less time to hunt. Simple facts. Hard truth to face. I used to love to hunt but when Rickie died I lost my interest in hunting. I had a ton of other dogs. I had dogs that hunted harder then her. That was faster then her. But never one that was just a overall good dog. Anyone that ever ran with her will tell you the same. Anyways, hope things change. But based on past problem history. I do not think it will. Good luck everyone.

Gary

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9197

Gary, the points scale was a tool of the past and no longer used, nor is that scale in the rulebook. Overall balance is more important than individual body parts.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

I agree that it is important to continue the conversation regarding the educational perspective pertaining to physical structure. The benefit that sound physical structure contributes to field performance is more obvious to some than to others. To keep the excellent hunt characteristics while selecting the most physically sound pups for ultimate performance is a key issue to propel the breed in the most positive direction toward "Total Dogs". Dogs with excellent physical attributes AND great hunt instincts do extremely well in the hunts.

Gary, Explain this statement: " the show world is increasing and the hunt world is decreasing."
I looked up some show schedules and I am finding less than 20 beagles at most shows AKC or UKC. Same as when I started showing in AKC shows in the early 70s. Our new hunt club's first show had more entries than any of the beagle show venues in my area. Hunts draw many more beagles than shows. Also many more hunt venues for beagles. All of them draw more entries than shows. Pretty beagles that do not have hunt instincts have a minimal demand. This has been true for many years. Beagles are one of the top breeds for registration numbers and yet so few enter the show venues.

Most who primarily show have no interest in winning the great prizes offered at hunts. They don't use dog boxes, tracking collars, hunting gear, etc . Very few have brought marginal or non-hunting beagles to earn the great prizes offered. The few that have create the dilemma.

Creating a show class for those who do not want to hunt could increase involvement from show folks. All of the regular classes at a hunt event should be for hunting beagles. After the hunting beagles have been judged, judge a class for the show dogs. The winner of the regular classes would earn total dog points. The show class winner would then compete with the total dog winner for an overall best of breed. That winner would receive top 10 points. Two show standings: Total Dog and Top 10. I strongly promote greater prizes for the total dogs because that is the ultimate professed goal of UKC. Recognition of the top 10 is also a valuable option. Bringing show and hunt folks together can have an overall positive effect on the breed.

In my opinion the dog with the best physical structure among the great hunt dogs should be considered a true total dog. A show dog that can make it through a hunt without being scratched but is marginal in the hunt is, at the end of the day, just a show dog, Not a Total Dog.

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 08-22-2016 at 04:16 PM

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

That sounds complicated Dan. Just offer points to show a dog points acording to class wins in show along with their all star points. Points for participation, class win, overall,boys.the shows will get more participation for the extra points. Total Dog. It also will Help breeder to build blood back to a total dog the can participate .

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

Last edited by Todd Eddington on 08-25-2016 at 06:45 PM

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

quote:

---

Originally posted by Todd Eddington
That sounds complicated Dan. Just offer points to show a dog points acording to class wins in show along with their all star points. Points for participation, class win, overall,boys.the shows will get more participation for the extra points. Total Dog. It also will Help breeders to build blood back to a total dog the can participate .

---

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 712

That sounds complicated Dan. Just offer points to show a dog points acording to class wins in show along with their all star points. Points for participation, class win, overall,boys.the shows will get more participation for the extra points. Total Dog. It also will help breeder to build blood back to a total dog that can participate .

__________________
...Bunny Bumpin' Beagles...
*HBCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Rock,(RIP)
*HBCH.GRCH.FS.Bunny Bumpin' Bridgit,''UKC'S 1st Total Dog/The very first TotalS of... (RIP)
*CH.HBCH.Bunhny Bumpin' Gravedigger Ace (RIP )
*CH.GRHBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Gravedigger Abbey (RIP)"The Best Jumpdog Ever"
*HBCH.Bunny Bumpin' Redline JR (RIP)
*GRCH.HBCH.PR' Bunny Bumpin' Tootsie Lou
Bunny Bumpin' Follow my Lead.
*CH.HBCH.Dalton's Sundown Itchin' Skeeter
*Bunny Bumpin' Itchin' Jackpot{in training}
*Bunny Bumpin' Leader of the Pack(in training)

Last edited by Todd Eddington on 08-22-2016 at 06:19 PM

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

Not complicated at all. Every thing stays the same for the dogs that hunt. After the overall winner is chosen among the hunting dogs, One class for all the dogs not entered in the hunt. One show class winner then competes against the regular bench show winner for Top 10 points. Simple as that!

I was asked this question: How does a show dog earn points towards its bench show titles? Also very simple. If the show class winner wins the showoff against the regular class winner it earns the same as was earned by the regular show winners. If the winner is a registered dog and the most points earned in the regular classes by a registered dog was 35 points, then it also earns 35 points. If it is CH then it earns a CH win. Very simple!

Pros:
Offers a show venue for all show folks in conjunction with every hunt.
Young dogs not ready for the hunt could show in the show class.
Continues to acknowledge both the best total dogs and top show dogs. Honor where honor is due!
Helpful for clubs. More entries = more $$.
Greater participation at events translates to increased registration for UKC.
Supports the UKC total dog philosophy.
One more dog earns points or a CH win that day if the show class winner wins the showoff.
Brings hunt and show people together without "sour grapes". Fact is not many of us who show the dogs we are running at the hunt appreciate being beat on the bench by a show dog that ran around for two hours chasing butterflies but just did not do anything causing the dog to get scratched. Some show people may not want their dog to be harmed or lost in a hunt. Better for everyone involved.

Cons for UKC:
Tracking both Total Dog and top 10.
Additional paperwork or paperwork change.
More titles to mail due to more points/wins earned at some events that have show class entries.
Prize packages!? Total Dog prize package is probably necessary and probably even a coat or something for the Top 10 Winner. A program without prize package is better than NO SHOW PROGRAM.
I don't see any cons that would negatively effect registry participants or the breed as a whole.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Millersburg,Ohio
Posts: 1976

How bout just take show dogs that dont hunt to confirmation shows.Thats what they are designed for..UKC has a place for show dogs.

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