Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

Im not sure all (purist) completely grasp this concept. In a few generations a handful of 87% B&T dog owners can register their dog under ABTCHA set guidelines. If (purist) don't want any of this in their unregulated no DNA required lines they will not be forced to breed, be bred, or purchase any.

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Shane

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Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

On a side note: Once these (unpure) dogs enter our breed and a couple more generations come to pass they will be THE EXACT % AS WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

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Shane

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

Shane, so what you're saying is in a couple of generations after adding this unpure blood and the percentage being what some people claim it is currently, the black dogs will be just as sorry as everybody claims they are at this time. If all this outcross blood hasn't helped so far what makes everybody think that adding it now will save the breed. I still think their are only a few true black & tan people alive today. I think the true black & tan follower is a thing of the past.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Well, I try not to worry about things I can't control. Having an X-breed appears to be something UKC has decided is going to happen whether we like it or not. Done deal.

UKC seems to have left one choice up to us on whether we let these dogs back in, after 3 generations. Personally, I can see very little harm in this as long as they have the rules defined and make sure they are followed by everyone.

Its extremely remote, but something could be gained and almost nothing to lose, if the rules are followed. Given the choice between getting something very small or getting nothing, I guess I'd choose something small and live to fight another day.

jmo.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

I don't care if the UKC starts an X-breed as long as its kept separate. I don't care if people hunt cross bred dogs if that's what they want to do. If they are going to be able to hunt in the UKC hunts why is it so important to some people that they be added back into a breed registry? The black breed will never get the dew claws and white off our dogs if people continue to push adding outcrosses. As I've said before according to some we have a lot of outcross in the breed already and some people are still not happy. The people that put bogus papers on dogs should have been barred for life from owning a UKC registered dog and anybody that knew the person that did it and didn't report it is no better than the person that did it. We're the oldest breed in the UKC and people want to change our breeds character and hunt style to some other breed.

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Ga
Posts: 453

You will never and I mean never get the white and dew claws off.people just clip them off and breed right back to them.even if you culled a pup for dew claws and white.dont you think the other pups in that litter carry the same gene.you will know what is cross now.better than being lied to and getting on the board preaching purest when you don't know what us in the closet.i am curious to see how many people want to throw a dog out of the breed for white but everybody is gun ho for all black.cur and plott are the only breed I know all black.and not stepping on toes for all black dogs...i have one and he will be x breed.only tan he has is on is toes if any.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: nashville,tn
Posts: 629

I like the idea of a cross breed regestry.but they need to stay over there.
All my black and tans meet the guide lines of what a black and tan is supposed to be right down to the pumpkin seeds above their eyes.
Its been that way for generation after generation.
My breeding will most likley be with my buddys dogs from here on out.I know where they came from.

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Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Mulberry AR
Posts: 167

What are the oldest and "purist" lines of black and tans. Is it the Wagner night rider? Smithhurst? I don' t know the answer but some of you might. The next question are the oldest purist lines winning today. If so that's great and nothing needs changed. If not maybe something does need added.

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Dustin Joslin

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Ga
Posts: 453

There is no pure breed of dog..there is a breed standard...standard only.if we went by that standard how many stud dogs threw the years that everyone loves would have been thrown out.by our standards height matters.and the studs I love do not meet the standard.they are big dogs.over height requirement's.cry about x if you want.i really dought that anyone that takes this path would want to come back to a standard...

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

If the black dogs are so lacking that some of you insist on crossbreeding, why do you bother to hunt a black dog. We eventually will get the dew claws and white off if people will stop single registering and crossbreeding dogs of unknown ancestry and putting that in the black dogs. Back in the 70's I owned a crossbred dog, he was 1/2 black & tan, 1/4 bluetick and 1/4 Norwegian elkhound. This dog was a picture perfect black & tan. A friend had a John McDonald bred Black dog. He wanted to breed to my dog, she had 10 pups. 8 were black & tan, 2 were black & white. The 2 B&W pups at six months old could not be picked out of a litter of full blooded blueticks. They were 3/4 B&T, 1/8 Norwegian and 1/8 bluetick. If the bluetick breed had single registration would it have been right to single register them with only 1/8 bluetick. That's my point, it wouldn't be right because they were not blueticks. Why bother with a standard if nobody wants to adhere to that standard. Like I said if the black dogs are so lacking, why do you hunt them

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Ga
Posts: 453

I haven't really seen anyone say they are lacking.and I promise you that 100 years from now black dogs breed to the purest will still have white and dew claws.dont really see your point on the white...its in the breed standard..

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

They don't have to come out and say they are lacking, you can read it between the lines in there comments. If the dew claws and white will never be bred out adding more white certainly won't end it. The few people like myself that are the true black & tan followers will never stop the tainted blood from coming into the breed as long as the controlling authority allows it. Knowingly adding outcross blood is in my opinion unethical, the establishment of a breed standard is to produce dogs with like characteristics. The breed standard does not just talk about color but shape of muzzle, head, the frame of the dog, etc. You cannot have dogs meet a standard when breeding dogs into the breed that do not meet that standard. Again when people think its the greatest thing since sliced bread to add off colored dogs to our gene pool, then those people have dogs that are lacking.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Bearden AR
Posts: 1735

Is that all that matters is dew claws and some white? Please. There is more wrong with our breed then that. Our problem is we have different philosophies of what a Black and Tan should look like and more importantly, how they should hunt. I want one to get gone quick. Have one thing one his mind and that is to get treed somewhere as quickly as possible with the meat. Others prefer one to take their time and cover every inch of the woods. Take the first track they come to and work it out, no matter how long it takes.

We will never get away from dew claws or white. It's in their genes and will always be there. Let those who want to out cross do so. And those who don't, don't. If you don't want a dog that has any other blood in him or her, then simply don't breed to it. That will please everyone. Once a dog has reached a certain percentage that UKC has decided to be appropriate, then that's fine by me. If the association thinks then that a hound must have some kind of degree, then I can live with that too.

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Registered: Jan 2014
Location:
Posts: 25

I have a ? Why do you guys worry about the white so much when there are "BNT" dogs that have black heads no tan with short ears? Why is that considered full when it could pass for a black lab from the shoulders up? Want a pic i have an example not trying to ruffle feathers just asking? Since looks are what is so important to everybody. Not ability nor hunt style.

Last edited by mesigmon on 09-06-2014 at 10:10 PM

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Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Mountains of NC
Posts: 1255

I want looks ability and hunt and have it and want settle for less. Don't think people should throw you or your dog under the bus as some have!! You have a cross breed dog and you have never said different. That being said I've not even heard of you pushing him in ukc or on other people!! Yes I've seen some dogs also that would probably fetch a stick if you threw it. It's not a disgrace to own a crossbreed dog it's not what I want right now but who am I to say no one should be able to. Yes I want them kept separate ! But the damage is done enough crossing has taken place in secret to effect some breeding for years. After all this is not what controls my life it's a freaking hobby I have a job . Have fun and enjoy life after all it's to short as it is.

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Mike McKinney

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hillsboro,ohio
Posts: 927

As far, as i know there are only a few lines of pure bred black&tans out there. Abe Miller, line breds the Bruiser line, i talked to him last winter, he says, you don't know with some of the lines, what you are getting. The folks up north, are still line breeding the Wagner line. With the X-breed of black&tans, i don't know, why you would want to go back, to the old pure bred, black&tans, as you would have ukc papers, you can put them, in the hunts, register pups, why go back?

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J.B.

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: Appomattox Va.
Posts: 38

Its true, I was at oaks. Suppose to start up 2015.

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Hennessey,Oklahoma
Posts: 575

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Poe
My worry is not that these dogs will take over or out perform what we have.. But more on we will lose some quality black females being bred to another color.. There is not enough good females to go around now.. And I believe this will thin the category that much more.

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Last edited by bigdavidbeebe on 09-12-2014 at 10:57 PM

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray Conrad
The current system would allow a dog that was any percentage 20,30,50,80 or whatever to be registered by going through the single registration procedure. We all know this procedure has been abused in many ways. Made up ancestry is very common in this procedure. As long as the dog met breed standards even loosely they could be accepted. The new system with a minimum of 80% is much stronger. I believe that most dogs that attempt to be re-registered B&T will be 87% at least. Realize that this will take several years and a commitment to get a dog above 80% after an outcross. It appears to me that the new system will actually help to keep B&T hounds just what they are B&T hounds. And here is the real important point to realize. THE MEMBERSHIP OF THE ABTCHA WILL GET TO VOTE EACH AND EVERY YEAR ON OPENING OR CLOSING THE BOOKS TO ALLOW ANY DOG TO BE REGISTERED A B&T. This gives us ultimate say so over our breed. If we think our genetic funnel is getting to narrow and we need some new blood we can open the books. If we think we are in good shape we just keep them closed. No system is perfect, The key is to realize where we are now and is the new program better for protecting and serving the breed or worse. It really does appear to protect our interest much better than the old single registration procedure and gives you the members of the ABTCHA ultimate control.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Kilkenny, MN
Posts: 893

I have reading this all very closely and agree that this is a step in the right direction but what's to keep a guy with any old B&T of unknown ancestry from sticking a false set of papers on the dog still. Why go through all the hassle of getting it reg. as a crossbred to just have people look down their noses on it. Why not have a pr dog the "old" way with fake papers? It sure is quicker and easier. Doing this is totally immoral IMO but how can a registry stop it? This new program will help the honest breeders but not cure everything that's why it is a good first step. Step 2???

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Hennessey,Oklahoma
Posts: 575

step 2 DNA all reg dogs!!

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