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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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Question about rule 4(i).

4(i).....When a dog that is declared treed leaves that tree the dogs tree points are minused.

Are there any exceptions to this rule? For instance, if a bunch of bees sting a dog off a tree, do we make an exception to the minus rule? What about coyotes running a dog off? How about if the landowner pulls the dog off the tree before the cast arrives? Any exceptions at all?

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10-08-2018 04:51 PM

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yadkintar
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I don't know Jim but you would think if you were close enough that you knew for sure those things happened it would be an interference call.

Just my opinion

Tar

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10-08-2018 05:07 PM

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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
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I don't know about the interference call. Where can I find that?

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10-08-2018 05:11 PM

yadkintar
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I didn't say it did I said you would think it would or should ! I never seen it written anywhere tho.

I never seen an advisor on it in the book idk.

Tar

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10-08-2018 05:17 PM

ssgied
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: tn
Posts: 667

I never heard of interference. It seems to me that if you open this rule to exceptios, that it would just be asking for trouble. There is enough unofficial interpretation going on as it is. Bees or coyotes running a dog off the tree sucks, but it's just the breaks.

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10-08-2018 05:23 PM

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jkidd1
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If there was any exceptions they'd be right there on the card with rule 4(i)

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10-08-2018 05:36 PM

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LoggyBayouBlues
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Registered: Jul 2009
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Posts: 116

Bee's

That happened at the world Hunt this year, and the dog took a minus for leaving the tree!

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10-08-2018 06:03 PM

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Redneck Mafia
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The rule doesn't fall under so called interference it would be under the instance to call timeout for dogs in danger and points will be deleted.

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10-08-2018 06:15 PM

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Redneck Mafia
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Rule 7 a. Place of danger to hunters or dogs. A bee attack or coyote attack that is verified and passed by a vote or a non hunting judge. These dogs would be deleted and one hour to catch, any others treed would be scored.

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10-08-2018 06:55 PM

yadkintar
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X2

Tar

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10-08-2018 07:04 PM

Dave Richards
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Rule

Agreed 100%, bees can kill a dog, as can a pack of coyote. Dogs should not be punished in these cases. Some things are more important than POINTS. J.S. Dave

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10-08-2018 07:16 PM

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Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
If there was any exceptions they'd be right there on the card with rule 4(i)

All exceptions are listed under 7 and timeouts rule a, b, d all pertain to what most would consider an interference. The deleting of the points instead of minusing is covered by rule 5 g.

Which now my question??? If now per UKC you cannot just call timeout because you choose to it needs to fit one of the criteria under rule 7 and meet one of six criteria in which points are deleted and not minused what is now the purpose of still having Rule e strike minus for calling dogs off trail? Timeout because you just want to is no longer an option and no minus is given points deleted per Rule 5 g. Rule 4 e looks to be taking up space on the card for a timeout rule that no longer exists.

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10-08-2018 08:00 PM

DFred
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Come on now.... someone's up to something!

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10-08-2018 10:21 PM

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jkidd1
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I don't think any of those exceptions would get you out of being minused if your treed in and your dog leaves.

Especially if the misfortune is just one dog, that means the Non-hunting Judge would have have to call time and pause the hunt for the other 3 dog who are out still competing as well, and same goes for a hunting judge. I'd say your just gona get the "sry pal bad break, your minused" speech.

Last edited by jkidd1 on 10-08-2018 at 10:30 PM

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10-08-2018 10:25 PM

Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I don't think any of those exceptions would get you out of being minused if your treed in and your dog leaves.

Especially if the misfortune is just one dog, that means the Non-hunting Judge would have have to call time and pause the hunt for the other 3 dog who are out still competing as well, and same goes for a hunting judge. I'd say your just gona get the "sry pal bad break, your minused" speech.

Everything under rule 7 is determined by cast vote or determined by non-hunting judge. Depending on how extreme the danger on whether you get the vote your way or not. If the bees or hornets chase the cast you may have a pretty good chance lol.

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10-08-2018 11:42 PM

Redneck Mafia
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quote:Originally posted by jkidd1_
If there was

Now my question??? If now per UKC you cannot just call timeout because you choose to it needs to fit one of the criteria under rule 7 and meet one of six criteria in which points are deleted and not minused what is now the purpose of still having Rule e strike minus for calling dogs off trail? Timeout because you just want to is no longer an option and no minus is given points deleted per Rule 5 g. Rule 4 e looks to be taking up space on the card for a timeout rule that no longer exists.

Anybody have a thought on this one? Allen, Jim, Michael anyone.

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10-08-2018 11:46 PM

Donnie Stevens
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quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia

Which now my question??? If now per UKC you cannot just call timeout because you choose to it needs to fit one of the criteria under rule 7 and meet one of six criteria in which points are deleted and not minused what is now the purpose of still having Rule e strike minus for calling dogs off trail? Timeout because you just want to is no longer an option and no minus is given points deleted per Rule 5 g. Rule 4 e looks to be taking up space on the card for a timeout rule that no longer exists.

This was kicked around on here a couple months ago. The guy that brought it up was pretty persistent about getting an official answer but never did get one.

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10-09-2018 12:07 AM

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Redneck Mafia
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Persistence will eventually pay off. No need for extra stuff on the score card if it pertains to a rule that no longer exists.
Rule 4 e was frequently used in the past when hunters decided to call time out and change spots for whatever, this no longer is an option per Rule 7. I suspect when the rule change committee passed Rule 7 as it is today rules that pertained to the old way were not deleted whether it was an accidental omission or purposely left we don't know. If it was purposely left I would like to know why and what circumstances it currently pertains to before I ask for it to be deleted from the card.

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10-09-2018 03:59 AM

joey
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Allan has said over and over if a dog is treed in nothing saves it if it leaves. If you go in and cant score it because of bee attack then that's a different story but that wasn't what was asked. He asked if there are any exceptions for a dog leaving a tree. There are none.

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10-09-2018 03:20 PM

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Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
quote:Originally posted by jkidd1_
If there was

Now my question??? If now per UKC you cannot just call timeout because you choose to it needs to fit one of the criteria under rule 7 and meet one of six criteria in which points are deleted and not minused what is now the purpose of still having Rule e strike minus for calling dogs off trail? Timeout because you just want to is no longer an option and no minus is given points deleted per Rule 5 g. Rule 4 e looks to be taking up space on the card for a timeout rule that no longer exists.

Anybody have a thought on this one? Allen, Jim, Michael anyone.

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10-09-2018 03:26 PM

Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by joey
Allan has said over and over if a dog is treed in nothing saves it if it leaves. If you go in and cant score it because of bee attack then that's a different story but that wasn't what was asked. He asked if there are any exceptions for a dog leaving a tree. There are none.

Rule 7 a, b, d. There are many scenarios that fit in one of the 3 especially life danger situations that would fit the criteria for an exception.
You will also notice that 5 g doesn't state just strike points it is listed under delete points. (g) If a judge has to call timeout in accordance with Rule 7. If there were no extreme circumstances that may arise during a hunt time that would have affected a dogs ability to stay treed the rule would read delete strike not delete points.

Last edited by Redneck Mafia on 10-09-2018 at 04:17 PM

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10-09-2018 03:32 PM

JiM
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Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Rule 7 a, b, d. There are many scenarios that fit in one of the 3 especially life danger situations that would fit the criteria for an exception.

If a dog is called treed, it must be scored in UKC, unlike the rule in PKC. So even if you call timeout, treed dogs get scored. Yes, you can call time for all the reasons you mentioned but any dog treed still gets scored. Unless they leave, then they get minused.

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10-09-2018 04:18 PM

Larry Atherton
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Location: Central Michigan
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All I can say is good luck with the cast vote if any dogs are in danger. I have had several (many) in danger moments for cast through the years, and each time the cast voted to not call time out.

One time we could see all 4 dogs in the road highlighted by head lights of an approaching car, and they refuse to call time.

Each and every time I had to to resort to withdrawing my dog. I don't care what most say a dog is not worth a cast win.

I have resolved myself that the cast vote or dog in danger are simply a bad break.

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10-09-2018 04:48 PM

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Redneck Mafia
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
If a dog is called treed, it must be scored in UKC, unlike the rule in PKC. So even if you call timeout, treed dogs get scored. Yes, you can call time for all the reasons you mentioned but any dog treed still gets scored. Unless they leave, then they get minused.

Yes I know that. Your original question related to interference and if there was any time that a dog could be interfered with at a tree in the rules. My answer was yes and I stated the timeout rules and the options that could pertain to certain situations that could involve a tree and that points in question from certain extreme senerios could be deleted and would be in the event of a non-hunting judges decision or a cast vote with a hunting judge.

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10-09-2018 05:50 PM

Redneck Mafia
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True hunt scenario

This happened to an infamous board poster back years ago roflmbo!!
Nearly all of you have some crazy story of circumstances completely out of your control.
All dogs treed together cast goes in to score the tree in the middle of an open field. When they arrive and before the dogs can be handled a herd of buffalo stampede to the tree and run the dogs off and the cast up the tree.
How do you rule.
This cast was more worried about saving themselves and were up the tree for around an hour treed by buffalo so finishing the hunt and proper procedures were not even considered.
IMO the reason Rule 7 has several options and some that cover danger to dogs and hunters and Rule 5 (g) delete points with neither strike and tree specified is because anything can happen in the woods.
If I were a non-hunting judge (in a safe place lol) IMO the proper ruling would be timeout called in accordance to Rule 7 (a) and all points deleted strike & tree in reference to Rule 5 (g) and they would have 1 hour to find a way out of the tree and catch their dogs.

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10-10-2018 09:18 PM

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