Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

Ok here's the scenario,
One dog left in winners pack Dog is hunting around a thicket Dog puts his head in a Bush and a rabbit pops out the back side of the Bush. Dog has no idea the rabbit was there or that he just jumped it. What happens here???
We had this come up at our trial and learned a lesson that day. What would you Of done.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 70

Nothing. He didn't know it was there. IMO you can't and shouldn't score that. If no dogs strike the track I would ask the handlers if they want to put the dogs on this track and go with first check.

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Last edited by HOHBC on 08-24-2014 at 07:34 PM

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Cerro Gordo,IL
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This is what I would do if I was judging....if the dog is hunting hard and looking for a rabbit and the dog starts acting rabbity sticks his head in the bush and a rabbit pops out I'm producing that rabbit. We've all seen scenarios where a dog gets a rabbit up and just simply for whatever reason can not smell it.

If the dog is just be-bobbing along not caring to much and a rabbit happens to pop out and the dog keeps moving on I wouldn't produce it and then I would ask the handler if they want me to put the dog on the rabbit.

It's nothing but a judgment call. There is not text book 100% correct answer for this that's why they call it judging.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

There is a text book answer for this fellows. We didn't kick the Bush the dog went in rabbit came out dog produced the rabbit +20. Ukc rep was there and walked us threw this. We to were like you guys dog didn't know it was there but rule book says the dog produced the rabbit and we seen it. Lol. Threw us for a loop to. But a great learning exp.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Absolutely correct Mike. Plus 20 lock out strike points to rest of cast. Before all the what ifs start the rule is if a dog is in the brush where the rabbit comes out and seen by the judge it is to get strike points and rabbit is produced.
This was discussed in great detail at rules committee. Not a unanimous vote but the majority felt that the dog did produce a rabbit.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East OH
Posts: 938

In the same senario,what happens if off game comes out the other side . Is he scratched for off game?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

I say no because producing off game and running off game are totally different scenarios

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

Producing the rabbit.....gimme a break.....

No points should be afforded for dumb luck.....

Boy the rules benefit the guy who wants some paper champs......

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East OH
Posts: 938

If you get credit for a rabbit your dog does not know went out the other side of the bush, why would he not be punished for off game he flushed out the other side but did not know about?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
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When this happen at our hunt we were all dumb founded by the way you are to score this also. I'm not saying I believe it's he right thing to do what I'm saying is by the rules it's what you must do. If one or two clubs do.it and the rest don't there goes your consistency in judging and we'll then it's all down hill from there.

And to the other comment producing and running are different ....

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Registered: Jan 2009
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Im with you jim!!!!

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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Bainbridge, IN
Posts: 181

There is a difference between producing and being able to run a jumped rabbit. Would the rabbit have left the brush pile if the dog had bypassed it ? Probably not. The dog produced the rabbit when it entered the brush pile as the rabbit felt threatened by the dogs presence.
As far as the off game question. The rule says pursueing off game and nothing about producing off game. So the situation is not the same. As Dave said earlier we had good discussion on when a rabbit is to be considered produced and hopefully we clarified that in new rule book.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
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Thank you Dave and Dale for the clarifications. I respect the job the rules committee does and know it's a lot harder then it seems to cover every possible angle of what ifs and could ifs.
Just wanted to get this out there for others to see the correct way to score this situation because I know had Dave not been there we would not of scored it the way it should of been scored.

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

again...benefits the paper champs.....

Rabbit happens along out a path...closest dog gets the jump...I bet MANY would be awarding points.

By some of those chiming in points would be awarded....when simply they SHOULD NOT....

handler+rule knowledge+average dog=UKC champ......

prove that wrong...

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 304

quote:

---

Originally posted by BCBeagles
again...benefits the paper champs.....

Rabbit happens along out a path...closest dog gets the jump...I bet MANY would be awarding points.

By some of those chiming in points would be awarded....when simply they SHOULD NOT....

handler+rule knowledge+average dog=UKC champ......

prove that wrong...

---

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

No, I was giving another scenario....not this one.

Either way, If my dog pokes his head in a bush a rabbit runs out and he goes right on hunting.....he had NO idea that rabbit was there so he DOES NOT deserve credit for that rabbit.

My opinion, NO JUMP points, split strike when you call the dogs to the rabbit......

Chasing a title.....take all the points your rules allow...isn't that what you are saying? I am not giving my dogs anything....here you are giving the dog credit when credit is not to be given.....BUT several will take what is "given" by the rules.....

Again.....good handler+ average dog(one given jumps for head poking in bushes)+rules that can be interpreted by the "good handler" = UKC paper champ....

Seen more than a few of them...no clarification needed.

I will keep pleasure running.....Just interjecting my opinion.

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Last edited by BCBeagles on 08-25-2014 at 06:15 PM

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 304

Other than catching their dog when instructed a handler should have zero involment in the judging of a performance pack cast...

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

So the judge or judges have to see this scenario and/or take the "good handlers" word?

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Jim Hall
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Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Grafton, WV
Posts: 190

This is performance pack not hound and hunter the handler has nothing to do with any scoring scenarios. An impartial judge with no dog in the cast does all the scoring. Next time try to know what the hell you're talking about before you post on here.

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Troy,IL
Posts: 26

The handler has nothing to do with performance pack except when the judge ask them to handle the dogs.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

Post wasn't meant to start a war. Was meant to share a situation which we would judged and scored incorrectly but with the new knowledge now know the correct way to score it.

Like I said wasn't trying to start WW3 Thought the input would come in handy as I'm sure it's happen before.

And everyone wants to know what if a rabbit hops out in front of the pack well 're read the scenario it is one dog left in winners pack. Obviously if a rabbit hops out in front of the pack theirs no way to tell what dog produced it.

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HERE AT MID VALLEY BEAGLES WE STRIVE FOR A DOG THAT CAN AND WILL COMPETE IN ANY CONDITION.
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Last edited by midvalleybeagle on 08-25-2014 at 07:22 PM

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

Hey grafton....easy.....I have supported UKC for years.....

Taking offense means....well anyway....you know.

I am explaining my opinion....you can agree or disagree...I did not curse nor mention a name.

***** WHAT is the about WE SCORED....now only a JUDGE CAN SCORE THIS according to the panel above????******

So who scores this....did the Judge see the head pop rabbit...if not then why is it open for discussion??

If the handler said...ole billy just jumped that there rabbit...who takes the card IF the handler has no input as you all stated?

Did the judge see the rabbit with the rest of the cast or just ole billy's handler and he pointed it out to the Judge??

Man can't ask questions or state an opinion without people getting all fussy.....lol.

I thought these hunts were fellowship amongst beagle brethren???

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Last edited by BCBeagles on 08-25-2014 at 07:29 PM

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
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No Jim it is simply a judge issue in performance pack no handler involvement what so ever.

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Registered: Apr 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 201

Ok, your scenario said WE scored it?

Meaning more than one person...if two judges...then that is a WE...if one. Most opinions are void of meaning to this question.

I am sure my paper champs comments is most of the anger I retract to say I have seen a few legitimate champs in the UKC format......a few......others well....they may get offended at times by opinions.

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Registered: Jan 2009
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Jim do u think coal miner was a paper champ............??? Lol!!

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