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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3276

JAH

We went through a time when most of our hunting dogs were grade dogs, some were crossbreds, others looked full blooded, but did not have registration papers. The night hunts were mostly for registered dogs and everyone started registering dogs for the hunts and or to sell pups, as everyone suddenly wanted a registered dog. Grade dogs have become a thing of the past, while registered dogs became abundant. It was a money thing with the registered dogs and with the cross bred dogs. A registry main purpose is to provide a record keeping service, a database on a dogs ancestry, they can do that whether purebred or cross bred. A man should be more concerned with their dogs ability as a coondog and less about it's so called purity. I would take one if Donald's example if it was a true coondog over any number of purebred mutts. I am to old to benefit with any breeding program purebred or cross bred, but there are a lot of younger guys that may benefit with a xbreed cross.
Why should they not have that opportunity to make a xcross, it's their choice. I believe that as the better xcrosses are made, there will be more of the purebreds jumping on board, everyone loves a winner. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Where is Rueben at he should be all over this topic !!



Tar



The biggest challenge on this thread is in keeping it short...lol

I once bred a yellow Pitbull with a yellow Kemmer mt cur trying to breed a few YELLOW running catch dogs and all 11 pups were born different shades of brindle...it was a big surprise to me...all yellow Kemmers bred in my back yard were yellow...always...I called Robert Kemmer on account he created that line of mt curs and he said when you bred a yellow Kemmer with another breed or even strain of mt cur we would get brindle pups...it took some years but part of the explanation is that some dogs appear to be yellow but upon closer observation and looking very close the actual color is a yellow brindle...

Same type of issues with bob tails...after 6 and seven generations of closely related dogs and trying to breed long tails I was getting almost 50 percent bob tails but never the short bob tails because I could actually see that...all hunted well...but never really breeding pups consistently with normal long tails...later I found out that some dogs appear to have long tails but they are considered bob tailed dogs because they might only be missing on small vertebrae...which they appear to be long tailed...

With the DNA testing in todayís time siblings are finding out that they may have slightly different DNA from each other...one sibling might have 25 percent Native American or more and the other having a higher or less percentage of Native American and the same with the other nationalities on said siblings..just in knowing these differences in the DNA among siblings is enough to know that if we are not careful we can lose certain traits by not selecting our pups correctly...so rather than proper selection from top shelf proven registered breeds and strains we are choosing to change directions...there are other ways to get consistency and cross breeding is not...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Where is Rueben at he should be all over this topic !!



Tar



The biggest challenge on this thread is in keeping it short...lol

I once bred a yellow Pitbull with a yellow Kemmer mt cur trying to breed a few YELLOW running catch dogs and all 11 pups were born different shades of brindle...it was a big surprise to me...all yellow Kemmers bred in my back yard were yellow...always...I called Robert Kemmer on account he created that line of mt curs and he said when you bred a yellow Kemmer with another breed or even strain of mt cur we would get brindle pups...it took some years but part of the explanation is that some dogs appear to be yellow but upon closer observation and looking very close the actual color is a yellow brindle...

Same type of issues with bob tails...after 6 and seven generations of closely related dogs and trying to breed long tails I was getting almost 50 percent bob tails but never the short bob tails because I could actually see that...all hunted well...but never really breeding pups consistently with normal long tails...later I found out that some dogs appear to have long tails but they are considered bob tailed dogs because they might only be missing on small vertebrae...which they appear to be long tailed...

With the DNA testing in todayís time siblings are finding out that they may have slightly different DNA from each other...one sibling might have 25 percent Native American or more and the other having a higher or less percentage of Native American and the same with the other nationalities on said siblings..just in knowing these differences in the DNA among siblings is enough to know that if we are not careful we can lose certain traits by not selecting our pups correctly...so rather than proper selection from top shelf proven registered breeds and strains we are choosing to change directions...there are other ways to get consistency and cross breeding is not...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

0nce upon a time there was an excellent strain of mt cur headed by a man named Joe Manning ...Texas Smoke was the dogs name...he was a world champion squirrel and coon dog and I liked everything about that dog...his offspring was hunted on bear as well...I was lucky enough to acquire his daughter who also was his granddaughter...and it was rumored that he had walker blood in him...the first two litters I got one pup was slightly red ticked pup and the other a walker colored pup ...but this line of dogs was some of the best I owned...

Another line of mt cur I used the original dam looked to be buckskin Plott...

Another famous mt cur line is referred as Busher bred mt curs...at one time they were really good and it was admitted that the original sire to this line was a PLOTT hound...

Right now it is hard to find a good mt cur on account most donít have a good nose and their ears are so short some ears stand straight up and some of thes dogs will way 25 or 27 pounds...pretty sickening to me...

Finding the right ones is a big chore...when finding the right ones I would not hesitate to breed big country or Sambo to give a quick improvement..

Once we get a line of dogs set right we shouldnít need crossing in any other breed of dogs...otherwise we will be spinning our wheels...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

The first time I heard about treeing curs as registered dogs I was pretty upset about it and I thought it was going to fly like a lead balloon...well I was wrong...the treeing curs are still around and I do not place much value in them...maybe I shouldnít say because I do not know the system...my assumption is that after a while we really canít look at a pedigree and figure out whatís what in a pedigree unless it is a personal bloodline...

But I can see where breeding an outstanding dog one time such as Big Country to a different breed like a good Walker line and carefully selecting pups from that cross that display the right traits and breeding those pups back to walkers then that to me is very acceptable...it shouldnít be easy to approve but it should be done when needed...sometimes it makes since...I would buy a great dog from this type of breeding in a heartbeat if needed...

Hopefully this will keep this type of breeding in the forefront and not in the dark behind the wood pile...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

The first time I heard about treeing curs as registered dogs I was pretty upset about it and I thought it was going to fly like a lead balloon...well I was wrong...the treeing curs are still around and I do not place much value in them...maybe I shouldnít say because I do not know the system...my assumption is that after a while we really canít look at a pedigree and figure out whatís what in a pedigree unless it is a personal bloodline...

But I can see where breeding an outstanding dog one time such as Big Country to a different breed like a good Walker line and carefully selecting pups from that cross that display the right traits and breeding those pups back to walkers then that to me is very acceptable...it shouldnít be easy to approve but it should be done when needed...sometimes it makes since...I would buy a great dog from this type of breeding in a heartbeat if needed...

Hopefully this will keep this type of breeding in the forefront and not in the dark behind the wood pile...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Reuben
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
0nce upon a time there was an excellent strain of mt cur headed by a man named Joe Manning ...Texas Smoke was the dogs name...he was a world champion squirrel and coon dog and I liked everything about that dog...his offspring was hunted on bear as well...I was lucky enough to acquire his daughter who also was his granddaughter...and it was rumored that he had walker blood in him...the first two litters I got one pup was slightly red ticked pup and the other a walker colored pup ...but this line of dogs was some of the best I owned...

Another line of mt cur I used the original dam looked to be buckskin Plott...

Another famous mt cur line is referred as Busher bred mt curs...at one time they were really good and it was admitted that the original sire to this line was a PLOTT hound...

Right now it is hard to find a good mt cur on account most donít have a good nose and their ears are so short some ears stand straight up and some of thes dogs will way 25 or 27 pounds...pretty sickening to me...

Finding the right ones is a big chore...when finding the right ones I would not hesitate to breed big country or Sambo to give a quick improvement..

Once we get a line of dogs set right we shouldnít need crossing in any other breed of dogs...otherwise we will be spinning our wheels...



Years ago I wanted to create a line of 60-65 pound mt curs with lots of hunt and nose and even create a strict standard with decent length of ear an slick coated etc...etc...

I asked Allen if I could bring in a few lines of mt curs (they cant be registered together in certain mt cur registries) and name it ďBIG GAME MTN CURSĒ and he said no to go and register with the treeing curs... Iíll admit there are quite a few treeing curs that look like the type of mt cur that I like...but I wanted consistency in performance and looks so I dropped it...if I had wanted my own strain I could went this direction...but I wanted a place where anyone who wanted a dog of this type to just look to the AKC for finding a decent dog of a certain type or strain of BIG GAME MTN CUR...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2097

Dave, if your friend's mule won, this crossbred thing might work. I think I'll breed one of my blue females to Richard's bob tail producing stud. Wouldn't it be great to win the world hunt with a bob tailed blue bone?

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9335

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Dave, if your friend's mule won, this crossbred thing might work. I think I'll breed one of my blue females to Richard's bob tail producing stud. Wouldn't it be great to win the world hunt with a bob tailed blue bone?






Queues bob sont surestimíes !! Paw,paw !



Tar

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Old Post 09-14-2019 04:41 PM
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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 772

Tar...why it it that the breeds need to go to cross breeds to improve the bloodlines? It is frustrating to me...in 2007 I let go of my dogs...big mistake...in 2009 I decided to get back in once all was ok...ten Yearís later I have culled at least 9 mt curs and 5 plotts...just now having dogs that are ok but not great...seems it is best to breed your own once you get them where you think they need to be...people talk all this baloney about these great dogs that breed true and now we are talking abut crossing breeds...I didnít say anything about issues when I talked about breeding dogs...but I will condense it more to point out the meat and potatoes...

I mentioned different breeds of the same colors...keywords...Ēdifferent breeds same colors...so when you breed different breeds you wonít know what your going to get...something as simple as colors...

Breeding line bred and inbred dogs for long tail and what did I get...some bob tails...

WHAT I WAS POINTING OUT INDIRECTLY IS THAT IT IS HARD ENOUGH BREEDING PUREBRED DOGS ...so how much harder will it be to breed mixed breed dogs???

I would pay a lot of money for a well bred dog that is linebred and inbred from a long line of top hunting dogs (not competition dogs) and if that line was stacked with great hunting dogs of the same types I like then that dog would be very valuable to me...if it was a great dog but very very scatter bred that dog would not be valuable to me...my yard is too small for a great hunting dog that can not reproduce itself...besides just being a great hunting dog to me is lower priority, way lower than a dog that is bred right besides just hunting right...if I pay the money I want the dog to hunt as I want and have the potential to reproduce itself...that is how I look at all my dogs in my back yard...I tend to look at all angles I can possibly see and have done so for many years...and no I am not where I need to be with my dogs...0nce upon a time I had what I wanted and will again one day...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9335

Reuben over all these years I have had my hands on a lot of dogs. What I have noticed is when you stick to mixing vanilla ice cream with vanilla ice cream itís good but and some sprinkles or chocolate chip once in a while it makes it better. I donít breed to the next big thing. I got my line I like but without outside influences once in awhile it will get stagnet. I watch dogs that are not close to my line but have the traits and reproduce the traits that I like. Most times those dogs are older by time you see it come to fruit. My decisions are never based on a dog just having one good night.


I kinda just know it when I see it.


Tar

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novicane65
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
Posts: 1176

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Tar...why it it that the breeds need to go to cross breeds to improve the bloodlines? It is frustrating to me...in 2007 I let go of my dogs...big mistake...in 2009 I decided to get back in once all was ok...ten Yearís later I have culled at least 9 mt curs and 5 plotts...just now having dogs that are ok but not great...seems it is best to breed your own once you get them where you think they need to be...people talk all this baloney about these great dogs that breed true and now we are talking abut crossing breeds...I didnít say anything about issues when I talked about breeding dogs...but I will condense it more to point out the meat and potatoes...

I mentioned different breeds of the same colors...keywords...Ēdifferent breeds same colors...so when you breed different breeds you wonít know what your going to get...something as simple as colors...

Breeding line bred and inbred dogs for long tail and what did I get...some bob tails...

WHAT I WAS POINTING OUT INDIRECTLY IS THAT IT IS HARD ENOUGH BREEDING PUREBRED DOGS ...so how much harder will it be to breed mixed breed dogs???

I would pay a lot of money for a well bred dog that is linebred and inbred from a long line of top hunting dogs (not competition dogs) and if that line was stacked with great hunting dogs of the same types I like then that dog would be very valuable to me...if it was a great dog but very very scatter bred that dog would not be valuable to me...my yard is too small for a great hunting dog that can not reproduce itself...besides just being a great hunting dog to me is lower priority, way lower than a dog that is bred right besides just hunting right...if I pay the money I want the dog to hunt as I want and have the potential to reproduce itself...that is how I look at all my dogs in my back yard...I tend to look at all angles I can possibly see and have done so for many years...and no I am not where I need to be with my dogs...0nce upon a time I had what I wanted and will again one day...




I guess I'm definitely in the minority on this subject. But I know I'm not the only 1. Imo going back to coondawg x coondawg will get me and my partner what we're looking for. And we're thinking about making a few crosses of our own, on our dogs in the future. We'll have 2 blue x walker pups, both out of Country. And if we get 1 to turn out then we'll use her in our program. I'd say 80+% of the hunters in the country would be happy with what we lead around, if not more than that. We're extremely picky on what we keep. You hear of guys that say stuff like....... We should stay within a breed to get the traits we want. Well what do you do if they don't make it in that color, or it's extremely rare within a breed but more common in another? How are you going to be able to get that trait that's rare without doing an outcross? You can't add something in if its not there to start with.

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ov_blues
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I talked to Joe Newlin one night for quite a while. We discussed line breeding at length and he made a statement that really hit home with me and I had personally seen with me and my Dad line breeding for several years. He said that line breeding will eventually breed back to the norm. I had seen the same thing and I remembered that our best dogs were usually from an outcross even though the dog we had bred to wasn't any better than what we had at the time, the offspring were usually improved. This made me think how really foolish it was for me to think that I was going to create the next best thing, or line, out of just the limited supply of dogs that I had in my back yard. I personally don't think that breeding to a different breed of coon hounds is any different than breeding to a completely different unrelated line of hounds within the same coon hound breed.

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shadinc
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Is it possible that breeders have been wrong all this time? Maybe close breeding is not the best way to go.

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Ghost14
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Has anybody ever heard the expression ďthereís more than one way to skin a catĒ? Never understood, and still donít, why men think if it isnít their way it isnít right. Thereís been good line bred hounds and good crossbred hounds, no way to know which was the best method. My personal view is breed them how you wish as long as you keep an open mind and see dogs for what they really are. You arenít ever gonna convince me that coondog to coondog wasnít a tried and true method. Just like Iíve seen line bred dogs that fixed very predictable traits to where a high percentage of offspring retained those traits. If a man could live long enough and fix predictable traits in multiple lines and cross breed between those lines I would think special dogs could be reproduced with more consistency. However, it will not and cannot be done so I wouldnít ever argue that my ďtheoryĒ is the end all best method. How could any hunter frown upon a man breeding two real coon dogs regardless of breed. Often times those same men approve of breeding lesser individuals within a breed because it looks good on paper. You show me 4 or better yet 5 generations of sure enough exceptional dogs and Iíll buy a pup right now. The problem is, very few put that kind of effort into breeding dogs. You arenít breeding the caliber of dog Iím talking about if the Sires and Dams have all come from you and your buddies yards. Nobody has owned or had access to that amount of exceptional dogs without making some road trips.

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yadkinriver
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Location: Yadkin County NC
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Sure we started out hunting xbred mutts and it's said history repetes itself so go for it. Look at all the big hunts these mutts have won. Count'em up it don't take over one hand.
Any man that has bred his own strain for any period of time knows what outside strain crosses good with his and when an outcross is needed he can go to that strain and if it nicks then he can breed back into his strain and refresh it. The big successful breeders followed their strains, won, and got famous for it.
Let's see, who got famous for breeding mutts........

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Old Post 09-14-2019 07:07 PM
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yadkintar
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by yadkinriver
[B]Sure we started out hunting xbred mutts and it's said history repetes itself so go for it. Look at all the big hunts these mutts have won. Count'em up it don't take over one hand.
Any man that has bred his own strain for any period of time knows what outside strain crosses good with his and when an outcross is needed he can go to that strain and if it nicks then he can breed back into his strain and refresh it. The big successful breeders followed their strains, won, and got famous for it.
Let's see, who got famous for breeding mutts........ !



Long hair , flag tails , dew claws ,yellow eyes , white on dogs that ainít supposed to have it. Ticks on dogs that ainít supposed to have it. Full blood hounds pointing birds and fetching coons. It may not show it on the papers but itís in there. I know a guy had a weenie dog x beagle cross he run rabbits with hmmmmm wonder who that was.



Tar

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Old Post 09-14-2019 07:26 PM
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Ghost14
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Yadkinriver, donít you think thatís kinda a lopsided comparison? The only dogs allowed to win big hunts were papered dogs over most of competition history. Thatís like saying I made more money than my son this year I must be a better worker. Heís already 9 years old and Iíve got 30 more years experience than him but if heís really so great he should jump right to being the best!

Maybe look at the most famous hunters in our countries history that made a living off of their dogs catching game for hides, depredation work, or museum specimens. They werenít using purebred dogs. Iím a fan of both methods so I donít have a care either way, just curious what either side has against the other. Thank goodness Lester Nance bred that treeing foxhound to a bitch of unknown ancestry so you would have the Purebred stock you have today.

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yadkinriver
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
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You're right Ghost it had to start somewhere just like everything else.
Tar I know Xactly who you're talking about and she was a good one but I didn't build a pack of them. Called the exception instead of the rule.
All dogs, horses, cows and chickens had to be bred to a breed.

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Old Post 09-14-2019 07:40 PM
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yadkinriver
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Tar

I thought you were a fan of the Tar Rattler strain but since you've sided with Dave now you're advocating the xbreeds. Guess I'll have to talk to Richard and see if he"ll rename you Muttbaby. Sometimes I start to think you're full of .... mud, yea I'll go with mud. Luv ya bro. If I wanted to argue I'd go to Florida and get my wife.

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Old Post 09-14-2019 07:59 PM
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Sgraves
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One thing about it . Pure bred , mix breed , long tail, bob tail. They will all eat a turd. So hunt whatever floats your boat. At the end of the day they will still be a turd eating dog.

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Old Post 09-14-2019 08:00 PM
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yadkintar
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 9335

Re: Tar

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
I thought you were a fan of the Tar Rattler strain but since you've sided with Dave now you're advocating the xbreeds. Guess I'll have to talk to Richard and see if he"ll rename you Muttbaby. Sometimes I start to think you're full of .... mud, yea I'll go with mud. Luv ya bro. If I wanted to argue I'd go to Florida and get my wife.



Not arguing just saying our dogs ainít as pure as we think. I out cross then come back in to rejuvenate the traits I want but I donít breed to mutts. I think all of us would like to hunt big country even tho he is blue. When they operate like that it donít matter about color. Wesley Martin a life long freind of mine had his grandpa down here he was a hard tireless hunter too. !!


Tar

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Old Post 09-14-2019 08:21 PM
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Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 3276

Ghost14

I loved your posts, they were factual. Yadkinriver, I am not advocating that we ALL should be looking to cross breed our dogs. I am just in favor of a man being able to make a Cross to another breed when they feel like it will improve their dogs. Your reference to how many big hunts the xbreed dogs have won was very misleading. You know very well that the program allowing xbreed dogs to hunt as registered dogs has not been in place long enough to make a fair comparison. A xbreed won the UKC World fair and square, beat all competition, only to be stripped of the title due to his handlers mistake. Make no mistake Sambo was the best dog that year and proved it. You breed what you like, anyway you want, that's your right, just don't think your way is the only way. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Old Post 09-14-2019 08:38 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1201

Dave Dave Dave you've not been paying attention. Reread my post on 9/13 at 3:42.

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Old Post 09-14-2019 08:44 PM
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yadkinriver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1201

BTW A person that doesn't breed dogs and telling people how they need to breed is like a man thats never been in the water giving swimming lessons.

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Old Post 09-14-2019 08:51 PM
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