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Reuben
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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1903

quote:
Originally posted by MorAnd
Dogwhisperer,

That's a different perspective … send in a dog that puts pressure on it; hadn't really thought of it like that. Nor, have I heard the "no hinge/hinge" verbiage. That's the beauty of this board, different thoughts/ ideas and terminology. I love learning something new …


Davebott,

Sounds like we train alike. Heck, we may both be wrong (Lol), but that's just how we see it.


Reuben,

It's funny, coon hunters seem to think dogs don't get hung up on off game/non-coon tracks. I've heard it said, I wish my dog could run a coon like he does a hog/deer. It sounds like some hog tracks are colder and have to be unraveled too.




We as hog hunters want our dogs to pack up...hogs that have been dogged quite a bit are dog smart and can shake the dogs off long enough to get away...

I am making an assumption on what happens at time...I have not actually seen it but have seen the sign and believe this happens at times...A group of pigs are feeding a river bottoms for 3 or 4 hours and have spread out over ten acres feeding before leaving and have left to their bedding area 2 hours ago...at that time two dogs strike at about the same time...one dog gets hung up in those 10 acres for 5 or more minutes...the other dog just knows to make a wide loop and hits the exit tracks within 2 or 3 minutes and will be bayed in 5 minutes...the two dogs I am talking about were related, nephew and uncle and both were top dogs...when you have 10 or more pigs feeding in a ten acre area it takes a pretty good dog to figure out the tracks in an acceptable time frame...these two dogs were so competitive against each other they would not pack up but they honored each other...

Since most hog hunters want their dogs to pack up it is difficult to figure out what is happening especially for the inexperienced...the lead dog can make the whole pack look good because he is the dog unraveling and keeping the track straight...

I think the big question needs to be...how long are we willing to hunt the dog to try and turn him into a better track dog?

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Old Post 11-26-2020 01:52 AM
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Reuben
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quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
If you tweak a young dog off bad tracks you may be preventing that dog from it's full potential. The best dog I ever had had so much nose he would take a track at midnight that was made early and other dogs wouldn't even open on and trail what seemed like forever. I would sit in the truck with my window cracked until his big squal locate then go to him. By two years old he would drift out on it and tree coons that others didn't know was in the woods and not take all night to do it.
Electronic training equipment is great but it can be over used too.



Sometimes I think my dogs noses are comparable to each other’s...and then as we are cruising along one of the dogs come by and just keeps running along never showing any interest...a little later another dog comes by and takes a track right where the other dog ran through...usually these colder nosed dogs are the better track and find dogs...but they aren’t those dogs that will start a cold cold track...

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Old Post 11-26-2020 02:19 AM
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Reuben
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quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
So there is a lot of info missing here on the question the should be addressed 1st. How old is the dog and how much time in the woods has it had ALONE? I dedicate a yr to hunting a dog alone through all four seasons. The most important thing is to fine a nice log to sit on by a tree for witch to lean you back on. Sit back a listen, use your garmin mark areas the dog throws interesting barks at. Once the dog moves out of the area check those marked area's. See what was there it don't take long to learn what every bark the dog makes mean. I like to sneak in on a dog where I can watch it work too. There are so many factors as to why a dog is standing on its head. Tree tops, dry leaves, tracking off game, jumping tracks, water, frost, tall vegetation, thick cover, the list goes on and on. The trick is to learn what is holding the dog up and keeping the shocker in the pocket and letting the dog finish. Once you are pretty certain what slows the dog down, try to set the dog up to succeed, to build its confidence. Sprinkle in what it struggles with and the dog should get better at it as it's confidence builds. You can speed this along if you have a good dog you can toss in with it every now and again to show it to how to better work an area it struggles in. I.E. working a track threw thick tree tops with briers. I good dog will take track to that point then circle it and pick it up on the back side rather than work through it. A young dog will pick up on that rather fast if it trust the dog it's in the woods with. It's all about reps and positive renforcement.


I like how you think...good post

I have a friend that has hunted dogs I have given him in years past...his style of hunting the dogs is way different than mine...his dogs don’t cast out far...they appear to be hotter nosed because of how they are hunted...they don’t wind much unless it is smoking hot and if they wind off the buggy he just keeps going to where he has decided where to hunt...he doesn’t use the wind to his advantage...

I don’t train the dogs much but I am very careful how I hunt my dogs...I try to start from downwind and work into the wind if possible...When I cast my dogs I won’t move until the pups are in the woods hunting...
If I am roading them I move slowly so they can be thorough when working a scent...if they get interested in something I stop and wait on them...if they come back we move on...if it looks like a good track I will walk into the woods at least 100 yards just to help them out...

if the dogs get a little interested in the wind currents and they go in but circle back and try again and come out...I will see the likely spot where the game is likely located based on wind currents...sometimes the scent is channeling...I will head into the wind until the dogs pick up on the scent...
If the dogs are in the buggy and they blow up I will turn them out...
There is a reason on why I do all these different things for the different hunting situations for my dogs...
I want my dogs to be thorough and at the same time focus the on task at hand and not on keeping up with me...it’s all about the dogs and not me...

My buddies dogs appear to not have a colder nose and don’t range far and it is due to how the dogs are hunted...

River Birch Run...your idea of training is similar to mine...

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Last edited by Reuben on 11-26-2020 at 03:33 AM

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River Birch Run
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Don't get me started on the wind and humidity LOL. I don't have much timber where I live it's all patch woods unless i'm on a river bottom. The last great dog I had was an ambush dog that hunted the wind. You had to cut him into the wind. If you didn't when you cut him he would sprint about a hundred yrds stop dead throw his head up and turn to hunt into the wind. He would open as soon as he winded the scent but then would go mute until he was almost treed. He was fast, would cover a mile in under 2 min and get treed. He had a good nose and could work bad tracks quick and get treed if he had too. He always ran to water on still nights, or bad nights. His dam was more balanced she would wind when she could but worked tracks on the ground as well. She would grab scent out of the air and walk on two feet on a lead. She wasen't good at treeing the layups she was always down wind of the coon one tree. His sire was the best coondog I have every owned. He had a great nose. He drift tracked and was always moving fast. He was natural he trained me, thought me more than I ever thought him. You could hunt him down one side of a woods and right back up the other to the truck treeing coon after coon. As he got older he was kinda a jerk he would set up other dogs by throwing a locate on a tree to get them to blow up the tree. Then he would sink in 20 to 50 yrds deeper with the coon.

My last litter I really paid attention to the pups when I started bacon drags in the yard at 4 wks old. Some of them straddle tracked, some tried to drift track and some winded. For the most part thats how they work tracks as adults. I didn't have an old dog to work with this litter to see if it would change how they hunt. What I have noticed over the yrs is that the dogs that wind are always the hyper dogs with a tone of drive and some what gamey ( but I think the run up on game). Seem to be the best tree dogs. The drift dogs tend to be the most complete dogs and more fun to hunt. Tend to be solid, dependable dogs the fastest. The straddle track dogs take the most work, and time. Most accurate but tree a lot of dens. Much harder to tell when there working off game.

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Old Post 11-26-2020 03:10 PM
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MorAnd
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A appreciate the opinions. Here is some info on my pip:

He just turned 19 months old. He was lightly started when I bought him 3 months ago (early September). I'm told he was started at around 13 months old, treed a coon the first night out, treed it off of a feeder. He had been hunted mostly off feeder before I got him and could tree an easy coon in the wild. I've hunted him mostly by himself the last 3 months, only in the wild. It was still very hot and dry when I got him in September and still has been up until a few days ago. I don't want to make excuses, but I believe his getting hung up on tracks is a combination of lack of experience (only 5\6 months of woods/actual time hunting) and tough tracking conditions. Now that we've got a little moisture the last few days, I'm hoping he'll begin to move tracks out quicker. My whole point in the original post was to get ideas as to what's considered a reasonable time to allow one to grind on a track they may/may not be able to finish, given I train to compete not just tree coons. I do not want and do not like a simple ambush style dog, I like a dog that can trail/run a track, but not take too long moving a track out.

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Old Post 11-26-2020 03:19 PM
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Reuben
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quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run


My last litter I really paid attention to the pups when I started bacon drags in the yard at 4 wks old. Some of them straddle tracked, some tried to drift track and some winded. For the most part thats how they work tracks as adults.

The drift dogs tend to be the most complete dogs and more fun to hunt. Tend to be solid, dependable dogs the fastest.



I have noticed the same thing on pups...I use this method to help select puppies but usually start at six weeks and continue for about 3 or 4 weeks (twice per week)...

10-4 on the drifting dogs...I prefer all my dogs to be of that type...add winding and it is a really good dog...I believe drifting dogs drift using their brain power to find the hotter end, and by using the wind currents to unravel the tracks, and a good nose is part of the package...a balanced dog...

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Old Post 11-26-2020 05:54 PM
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honalieh
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I agree

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
If you tweak a young dog off bad tracks you may be preventing that dog from it's full potential. The best dog I ever had had so much nose he would take a track at midnight that was made early and other dogs wouldn't even open on and trail what seemed like forever. I would sit in the truck with my window cracked until his big squal locate then go to him. By two years old he would drift out on it and tree coons that others didn't know was in the woods and not take all night to do it.
Electronic training equipment is great but it can be over used too.



If you get tracks in greenbriars and thickets it can be a little frustrating. But, if they never deal with the tough tracks, and learn from them, they'll not get to the point of being able to work out a tough track.

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Old Post 11-28-2020 06:26 AM
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2ol2hunt
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Explain " hinge and no hinge" please.... thanks

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Old Post 11-28-2020 03:53 PM
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Nathan Phenix
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I'm thinking he means a dog with hinge will hunt circle and swing back around or check in and no hinge isnt coming back goin until treed kinda hound

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2ol2hunt
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Thanks never heard that before

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Old Post 11-28-2020 05:43 PM
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2ol2hunt
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What does it mean when a handler "pitches" his dog?

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Old Post 11-28-2020 07:49 PM
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Dogwhisper
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quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
I'm thinking he means a dog with hinge will hunt circle and swing back around or check in and no hinge isnt coming back goin until treed kinda hound


No that's not what it means.
A dog with a hinge uses it's nose..... moves it's head up/down ,side to side, as opposed to a dog that doesn't have a hinge.....no hinge head just stays down ,trailing .

Imo the dog that can lift it's head and wind ,trail with it's head down when necessary combined in one dog is "closer" to a complete coondog....a dog that can operate by whatever it takes and is not a "one way" dog.

e.g. of a one way dog....".deep and alone"...that's all that type dog can do, forget about putting it's head down, ain't gonna happen , cuz it doesn't have the brains too...jmo

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Old Post 11-28-2020 11:50 PM
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MorAnd
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Tweaking a dog to compete (bad tracks)?
I figure there'll be several opinions to this question, depending on the type of dog you like and what you like listening to. I train a dog to compete and not just tree coons. When your dog is on a bad track that its having trouble moving/unraveling:

1) at what point do you determine that the dog won't finish that track with a coon, or it will probably take it longer than you're want it to

* WHEN IT BEGINS PAINTING THE GARMIN WITHIN A 50-100 YARD +/- SQUARE

2) on average, how long do you allow it to work/worry with that track before you send it on/move it out

* 10 - 15 MINUTES

The 50-100 yds/10-15 minutes is pretty my rule of thumb. My young dog is 19 months old and was started at 13 months old, so he has all of 6 months of experience, most of that in hot and dry conditions (just getting cooler and damp). I like a lot of things about him, so my plan is to keep moving him off of those tracks that he get bogged down on (mostly by walking in on him with a switch along with vibrating him with the Alpha) until he either improve his tracking ability to move them out quicker on his own, or until he realize he's spent as much time on them as I will allow him.

I appreciate and respect those that like a different style than I do and those who use a different way to obtain the same results. I have enjoyed reading the different perspectives.

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Old Post 11-29-2020 08:26 PM
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MorAnd
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Tweaking a dog to compete (bad tracks)?
I figure there'll be several opinions to this question, depending on the type of dog you like and what you like listening to. I train a dog to compete and not just tree coons. When your dog is on a bad track that its having trouble moving/unraveling:

1) at what point do you determine that the dog won't finish that track with a coon, or it will probably take it longer than you're want it to

* WHEN IT BEGINS PAINTING THE GARMIN WITHIN A 50-100 YARD +/- SQUARE

2) on average, how long do you allow it to work/worry with that track before you send it on/move it out

* 10 - 15 MINUTES

The 50-100 yds/10-15 minutes is pretty my rule of thumb. My young dog is 19 months old and was started at 13 months old, so he has all of 6 months of experience, most of that in hot and dry conditions (just getting cooler and damp). I like a lot of things about him, so my plan is to keep moving him off of those tracks that he get bogged down on (mostly by walking in on him with a switch along with vibrating him with the Alpha) until he either improve his tracking ability to move them out quicker on his own, or until he realize he's spent as much time on them as I will allow him.

I appreciate and respect those that like a different style than I do and those who use a different way to obtain the same results. I have enjoyed reading the different perspectives.

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Old Post 11-29-2020 08:26 PM
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River Birch Run
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1) Do you know for sure he is hung up on coon tracks Or off game? In my country when they struggle that bad its more than likely a opossum this time of yr. If he is working coon tracks and your moving him off them he may be getting very confused as to what you want from him. But to answer your ? I don't move a dog off tracks until they are to the point that they are able to finish all there tracks, or move onto a better one on there own. Once they get to that point, then after 5 to 10 min of not moving out of an 20 yrd area I push them out.

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Old Post 11-30-2020 03:06 PM
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MorAnd
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It never crossed my mind that he may be getting hung up
on off game tracks, especially a possum. He’s never treed a possum. He’s ran fast off game, but he doesn’t seem to get hung up on those tracks at all (Lol).

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River Birch Run
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LOL I just went through the same thing. I have a 3 yr old I started good had here running and treeing at 8 months but put her up to hunt other dogs. I started hunting her again 2 nites a week in Aug and it was bone dry here. She struggled more than when I started her as a pup. One nite she slammed coon all over the woods saw one in every tree she made. Next weekend struggled to make a tree. Then one nite I sat still as she worked out of a cornfield I watched the possum walk through. Sure enough 5 min later she went every where it had gone and slow. I grab her up and cut her on in the woods. She worked a good track and treed a coon. Next night bad track finally treed in a log 20 min later and had a possum. I just told her NO BAD Girl. Next weekend smoked a deer, I toned her off it. She handles well, as I was walking to her I walked past a possum. I handled her and walked her past were the possum was, she got happy and I yell at her. Soooo now she works them fast enough to tree them. She will sit treed forever on them but never throws the locate on them as she does a coon. She trees till she see's my light get within about 50 yrds from her. Then she packs her bags and bolts across the woods and almost always slams a coon. She always throws a triple chop and stays there when I come in when she has a coon or legit den. It's just hard till they do tree coon to figure out what they are doing. Thats why I hunt mine alone and I like to go by myself so I can focus on everything they are doing. I've never had a dogs mess with possum much I hope it was just a phase LOL

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Old Post 12-01-2020 02:21 AM
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River Birch Run
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Any update on your progress ?

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Old Post 12-23-2020 01:49 PM
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Richard Lambert
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A friend of mine has a young dog that was working bad tracks, going slow and missing some. So he started "working" on him with his Alpha. I talked to him last night and he said that he had made a lot of "progress". His young dog had made 3 trees and had 3 coons and was fast as lightning on them one was at 1 mile, one was 1.5 miles and one was only .8 miles. Now this is up North where coons are thick. Now is this "progress".

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Reuben
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
A friend of mine has a young dog that was working bad tracks, going slow and missing some. So he started "working" on him with his Alpha. I talked to him last night and he said that he had made a lot of "progress". His young dog had made 3 trees and had 3 coons and was fast as lightning on them one was at 1 mile, one was 1.5 miles and one was only .8 miles. Now this is up North where coons are thick. Now is this "progress".


🤔

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Dogwhisper
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Not really....."up north where coons r thick " and it's going that far ....leads me to suspect it's leaving coons behind !😁

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shadinc
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I never pass up a chance to let my dog be himself. Isn't that why we use them to find coons for us? They're better at it than we are.

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2ol2hunt
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What makes a dog go over a mile every time you unsnap it? Is it training or DNA or ignorance or could it be excess energy?

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River Birch Run
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Some do it because they have been beat not to tree with other dogs. Some do it cause they run trash silent and fall off treed. Some do it cause they don't like to hunt with other dogs. Some do it cause there smart enough to hunt into the wind and on the wood line or off water.

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2ol2hunt
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Sounds logical

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