Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 167

1. Neither UKC or AKC are Burger King. You don't get to have it your way. You get to have it their way.

2. UKC is NOT AKC, please don't expect them to be.

3. Nothing new here at UKC. Always been this way. What's changed besides your perception?

4. If someone attempts to register an AKC LR, who is defying the breeders' wishes? THE APPLICANT, NOT THE REGISTRY.

5. How widespread is the problem? Can anyone cite any examples of this alleged abuse? Or has everyone's emotions run off with with your rational thought.


I attended the shows and weight pulls at the Carnation City events this weekend. Not once did I hear about AKC LR. Not once was it EVER mentioned. I did hear, REPEATEDLY, how wonderful the atmosphere was around the rings and the entire site. Fortunately the weight pull folks were having WAY too much fun to let the sour attitudes on this board ruin their weekend.

Did you forget why you came to UKC? IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DOGS. And having some fun.

Hal Davis
Strongbow Beagles

home of multi BIS, multi BIMBS, (new)UWP (new)CGRCH GRCH WP3 Strongbow Mama's Boy CGC

We're still havin' fun

Last edited by Hal on 12-31-2004 at 05:08 AM

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: OHIO
Posts: 220

Most sensible post I've seen so far. Thanks Hal.

Sue

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 732

Excellent post - personally, I just like to get to the bottom of controversies and try to gen an answer directly from the source.

But my feeling is if you do not want a pup to be bred if placed in a pet home then you have to later it prior to placement. But an honest person would not register an AKC LP dog with the UKC just to get past the breeder's desires for the dog not to be shown or bred. Sadly, there are just enough idiots that would, however.

But you know, hiatus from competition is doing me good! LOL!

I am able to concentrate on working with dogs and their owners. Working right now with a great couple and their hunting Germ Shorthair Pointer who needs to learn a few house manners for when she is not out hunting or working. Great little dog and owners who know what they got but were still a bit shocked at how different she is from I think the Weimeraner they used to have.

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Will O'Wisp Shelties
http://www.WillOWispShelties.com

The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project
http://www.SafeKidsSafeDogs.com

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http://www.UnitedShelties.com

Ultimately we make dogs what they are:good or bad. If a problem arises, look first to the other end of the lead.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 195

Hal,

You're right about this and we should be looking at the "differences" that many of us seem to like that drew us here to begin with.

My only comment is that the 'average' dog show person probably isn't on this BB, or at least not ALL of them . They may not even be aware of the "controversy" until they read about it in Bloodlines (I say this because I am sure that UKC will publish this informtion.) So we may not hear about the issue at events. I will say that I did hear it at this past weekend's show in DE. Wasn't a huge issue, just a "hey what do you think?" People were reasonable.

I have also rec'd a number of e-mails from friends who show primarily with "another American registry" who wanted to know "is this true?" I have forwarded the UKC response. They were pretty upset in their response back. I've been working hard to try and get others to participate in UKC. This will put a damper on things because this policy is seen as a lack of support for the wishes of a breeder on the part of a registry. This of course doesn't mean that the "other American registry" DOES always support it's breeders. People are just more familiar with that entity and are used to working within that set of rules.

I've read some very thoughtful posts on this subject, both "for" and "against" if you will. Discussion of this sort is necessary, so that people will gain a more balanced perspective over time.

Make mine onion rings instead of fries...

Michelle

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Michelle Frank
Epona Alaskan Malamutes
Ch. Epona's Leather N Lace O Masasyu
Ch. Epona's Dubh Bainin
Kayloma's Blk N' Wht Formal Affair JDH, PT

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: OR
Posts: 199

No change?

Stated policy as of December

This is the stated policy now:

"UKC is giving full registration to AKC Limited Registered dogs. We are requiring that the dogs be submitted with photos so that we are able to determine whether or not the dogs have any disqualifying confirmational faults. UKC will give Limited Privilege registration to dogs listed as Indefinite Listing with AKC. AKC breeders who do not want a buyer to ever breed a dog are encouraged to draw up a contract at the time of sale to either ensure that the dog be spayed or neutered or ensure that the dog never be bred. Breeders also have the option of with holding papers until a dog has been spayed/neutered. This was a decision made at the highest levels within UKC for many different reasons. Please let me know if additional clarification is needed.

Carrie Reid
Single Registration Coordinator"


This would be defined as a change.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 167

Michelle,
I noted in my first post that this issue had not been discussed at the CCKC shows because others have suggested that the entry at the show they attended was significantly reduced "because" and that the people who weren't there weren't there "because" and the only topic of discussion was "because". Just sounded to me like an attempt to "supersize" their agenda.

Hold the tomato


Sarah,
A response on a message board does not a policy make.


Now I'm ready to be flame-broiled.


We'll go to Arbys tomorrow.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Leesburg
Posts: 648

Hal,

Would you like fries with that?

Good post.

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Tina L. Camp

Please visit:
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Great Lakes Boxer Club
United Pomeranian Association
Mid-Lakes Australian Shepherd Club

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 34

I was at the CCKC shows myself and heard plenty about it...I own the dane that took multiple group placements over the weekend and finished him there. Theres plenty of people there upset about it iincluding myself. And yes the atmosphere at the show was great and I enjoyed myself, but the atmosphere at a show has nothing to do with this discussion...JMO

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Julie Gould
www.geocities.com/gouldengate/mydogs.html

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1116

It is the responsibility of the BREEDERS to make sure the pups they produce are not shown, bred, or their offspring registered-NOT the registry!

If a breeder wants to have a pup THEY produce taken out of the gene pool THEY need to make sure the puppy is altered and withhold papers until that is complete or to get the puppy altered themselves before it is sold.

Limited registration really doesn't do much other than give breeders an excuse to slack and pass the buck on their own responsibilities. All it does is allows them to sell a papered pup to get money into their hands. I mean really, who is going to pay $600 for a pup they have to alter and spend more money on in order to get the papers and have an unregistered dog until then? Not as many as will gladly snatch up a pup with papers even if LP. By having limited registration it allows the breeder to release registration papers without having to follow through on their puppy contracts. It's a great selling tool for the breeders to move pups.

In AKC I have seen limited reg abused many times. I've seen a lot of pet quality pups grow up and a breeder put a price on allowing it to be switched to full registration. It has become more of a breeding tax payable to breeders. "If you give me $600 you can have a registered dog but cannot breed it, BUT if you give me ANOTHER $600 I will let you have full registration so you can breed it". Rather than getting $600 for an altered pet pup the breeder is allowed to put a price on 'selling' breeding rights separate of the dog. I have seen nice dogs taken out of the breeding pool because their owners couldn't afford the breeding fee to the breeder to reverse the LP. Rather than placing the quality pup in the right home it was sold to whoever had the cash in hand at the time with the breeder expecting the fees to be paid once the owner realized what a nice dog they bought.

Before LP registration I saw breeders getting $1000 for a puppy with a $500 refund when the pup was altered. I also saw breeders withholding papers until the contract obligations were met. LP takes a lot of responsibility off of breeders when it comes to placing a puppy. With LP they don't have to screen as hard or work with their puppy buyers, they can and often do just sell and check a box.

LP doesn't mean the dog won't be bred. In reality these dogs are being bred and sold as purebred from papered parents. OR these pups are being bred and registered with other registries.

Goes back to the saying if you want things done right you need to do it yourself! IF YOU the breeder choose to sell a LP pup without requiring it to be altered, following through with making sure it is altered, or altering it yourself before purchase IT IS YOUR fault if the dog is bred and pups registered through another registry, NOT the registries'. IF you had done your job as a breeder you wouldn't HAVE the problem as the dog would be physically unable to reproduce.

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It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 195

***********************************
quote starplott:
Goes back to the saying if you want things done right you need to do it yourself! IF YOU the breeder choose to sell a LP pup without requiring it to be altered, following through with making sure it is altered, or altering it yourself before purchase IT IS YOUR fault if the dog is bred and pups registered through another registry, NOT the registries'. IF you had done your job as a breeder you wouldn't HAVE the problem as the dog would be physically unable to reproduce.
**********************************

Point well taken. It is my responsibility as a breeder to do all of those things. If the registry has no responsibility, then I don't need them. I can keep my own records. (The Alaskan Husky breeders do that just fine. They have impeccable records on breeding racing sleddogs.) My dogs are all DNA profiled. I can prove who sired what and belongs who which dam. All a registry has to do is give me a tracking number so I can go play with my dogs and get titles. There's no need for any designation for being a pure bred dog either, 'cause most any dog of any type can "do stuff". No reason for me to register my dogs other than to play. No reason NOT to allow mixed breeds in conformation for championships either, especially since we're altering everything that leaves our premises. We'll have lots of dogs that can participate in the altered class at events.

I followed up on my contracts. I've worked very hard with lawyers to make my contract as "iron clad" as possible. You know what I was told legally? That contract, even though signed by the buyer stating they would neuter a dog by 6 mos of age was not enforceable because the buyer paid for that animal, period. So when I breed a litter, I make ****ed sure that I can keep or take back every puppy whelped, no matter what age. It's pretty easy for people to pontificate on what every one else should or shouldn't be doing. I agree that this particular "infraction" is probably a very small percentage of the total dogs registered from year to year. But please don't use blanket statements making out everyone who uses a Limited Registration as a tool as lazy or irresponsible.

Michelle

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Michelle Frank
Epona Alaskan Malamutes
Ch. Epona's Leather N Lace O Masasyu
Ch. Epona's Dubh Bainin
Kayloma's Blk N' Wht Formal Affair JDH, PT

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 732

Ever try to get onions rings witha Kid's Meal - you can't... My son prefers the rings and I have to buy a full order of them and cannot substitute - you cannot truly get it your way unless you are asking for just the stuff on top of the burger - and then you have to pray the person filling your order gets it right!

quote:

---

Originally posted by eponamalamutes
Hal,

You're right about this and we should be looking at the "differences" that many of us seem to like that drew us here to begin with.

My only comment is that the 'average' dog show person probably isn't on this BB, or at least not ALL of them . They may not even be aware of the "controversy" until they read about it in Bloodlines (I say this because I am sure that UKC will publish this informtion.) So we may not hear about the issue at events. I will say that I did hear it at this past weekend's show in DE. Wasn't a huge issue, just a "hey what do you think?" People were reasonable.

I have also rec'd a number of e-mails from friends who show primarily with "another American registry" who wanted to know "is this true?" I have forwarded the UKC response. They were pretty upset in their response back. I've been working hard to try and get others to participate in UKC. This will put a damper on things because this policy is seen as a lack of support for the wishes of a breeder on the part of a registry. This of course doesn't mean that the "other American registry" DOES always support it's breeders. People are just more familiar with that entity and are used to working within that set of rules.

I've read some very thoughtful posts on this subject, both "for" and "against" if you will. Discussion of this sort is necessary, so that people will gain a more balanced perspective over time.

Make mine onion rings instead of fries...

Michelle

---

__________________
Will O'Wisp Shelties
http://www.WillOWispShelties.com

The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project
http://www.SafeKidsSafeDogs.com

Webmaster for United Shetland Sheepdog Association
http://www.UnitedShelties.com

Ultimately we make dogs what they are:good or bad. If a problem arises, look first to the other end of the lead.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 195

LOLOLOL. Karen, thanks so much for bringing this back where it belongs, FUN with GOOD people.

Michelle

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Michelle Frank
Epona Alaskan Malamutes
Ch. Epona's Leather N Lace O Masasyu
Ch. Epona's Dubh Bainin
Kayloma's Blk N' Wht Formal Affair JDH, PT

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 732

Even worse... try Wendys or even McD's!!!

We have two locally that in the almost seven years we have lived here we have YET to get an order correct. Does not matter if we go walk in or drive through.

The sick thing is - WE ARE GLUTTONS FOR PUNISHMENT AND STILL GO THERE instead of drviing two blocks over to the other ones! LOL!!!

I also love asking for a BOY's toy and getting a GIRL's or getting the baby/toddler toy when it is OBVIOUS the kid at the counter is neither! Sometimes you think some of these employees are dog show judges in the making! (OK, now that I have ticked off all the judges who read this board - ooooops - :P With my next set of talks and pending published article I am bound to be drummed out of the purebred dog world any how... or at least out of Shelties.)

KFC - not bad - just don't try to get the little deep fried apple pies - they never seem to have any in stock. And here in the south some carry fired chicken livers - those'll do ya in.

Not that we live on fast food but once a week or after swimming or a special treat that the boy gets to go out for a junk dinner.

Hmmm. Arby's - pretty decent with getting orders right - but you have to go into the mall to get to the closest one - NOT AN OPTION!!! the other is half an hour away.

Long John Silvers... fast food seafood... 'nuff said.

Popeye's...

man am I in a mood - what happens when someone makes a wrong number to your emergency number at 3:53 am (and your husband is travelling for work )and your daughter decided to LOAD a diaper in the mni van and then while being changed on the front seat of the van so you can save your sore back from bending over the back of the van, manages to find a bit more in that tiny bladder of her's at the SAME moment the dirty diaper is yanked off and the dry one slipped under...

Let's put life in perspective here.

and then the guy parked next to me opens his door into my van while I am sitting there. I just started to laugh hysterically and think I scared him witless as I opened my window to keep laughing at him!

Well, I have stock in Starbucks and right now am living on it - at least they generally get my coffee right when I need it!

__________________
Will O'Wisp Shelties
http://www.WillOWispShelties.com

The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project
http://www.SafeKidsSafeDogs.com

Webmaster for United Shetland Sheepdog Association
http://www.UnitedShelties.com

Ultimately we make dogs what they are:good or bad. If a problem arises, look first to the other end of the lead.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Downingtown, PA
Posts: 195

Oh I am in tears here...LOLOL.

Let's see what happens tomorrow as I make my way through two AHBA Junior Herding Dog tests....my smooth collie has a sick sense of humor. When he thinks the walk abouts are getting too boring, he'll suddenly "push" the sheep forward which causes me to end up face first in the pasture.... Last week I could "feel" when it was going to happen, turned to tell him to "get out" and ended up on my fanny instead of my face... Looking up into a grinning collie face and furiously wagging tail....

Michelle

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Michelle Frank
Epona Alaskan Malamutes
Ch. Epona's Leather N Lace O Masasyu
Ch. Epona's Dubh Bainin
Kayloma's Blk N' Wht Formal Affair JDH, PT

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: VA
Posts: 732

HEY!!!

My son was able to get onions rings with his kid's meal yesterday! I was SHOCKED!!! And I immediately thought of this thread! LOL! Either that or it was a new employee...

My sister herds. I laugh at her stories. Basically, dogs are fine, she is not the world's best handler. My couple of experiences with herding clinics were a riot! Let's talk about manure piles and a Sheltie who learned the quickest route between two points was through the pile. My crew is pretty much retired from competing. I just do dog safety now for the most part.

Something about two young kids and why my mom took a hiatus when she had two young kids.

Hey, if you ever have a bad herding day...

Starbucks:

Venti
Quard shot Caramel Macchiato
exta caramel.

then add sugar.

You will feel NOTHING for a week! Just do not do this if you have heart toubles!

__________________
Will O'Wisp Shelties
http://www.WillOWispShelties.com

The Safe Kids/Safe Dogs Project
http://www.SafeKidsSafeDogs.com

Webmaster for United Shetland Sheepdog Association
http://www.UnitedShelties.com

Ultimately we make dogs what they are:good or bad. If a problem arises, look first to the other end of the lead.

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