houndsound
UKC Forum Member
Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1148 |
quote:
Originally posted by Wipeoutfan
Hoindsound..I had a huge long post made out as a reply to your question but I can answer with a question back to you...
Please answer with a simple yes or no....
Did Jesus teach us to practice evil in moderation?
I decided to give you a few points I go by on this subject....
1) The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine. Teh word in the original texts that referto the wine Jesus drank and mademeans unfermented or fresh squeezed. it is a totally different word that the original wordsused to referto strong drink or drubkenss. The English word wine originally had two meanings also - unfermented juice or alcoholic drink.
2) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.
Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.
Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return
Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.
1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.
Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.
1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.
Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking. WasJesus not a "Prince"
Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.
Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.
Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.
I have about 100 more verses that speak negatively of wine/strong drink/etc. I cant find any that speak good of drinking fermented beverages.
O.K.- I first need to know if you copy and pasted this list of verses or paraphrased them yourself? Becuase if you copied them you should take them off asap. If you parpaphrased them you should apologize for twisting Scripture. I've always said (as most Christians) that the Bible speaks of being drunk as a sin, not the drink itself. Every verse you listed talks about being drunk... you however paraphrased them to talk about the drink in general. Just so everyone knows that I'm not making this up I'll go through each one.
You said: "Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink."
The verse actually says, " 15"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on his nakedness!"--- so if you only quote half the verse you have a point.... but the verse in entirity is clearly speaking of getting people drunk to take sexual advantage of them... it's not just saying wine is bad.
You said: "Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return"
The verse actually says, " 48But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, `My lord delayeth his coming,' 49and shall begin to smite his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken,"---- clearly talking about getting drunk... not just the drink.
You said: "1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him."
The passage actually says, "11But I now have written unto you not to keep company with any man who is called a brother if he is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. With such a one you are not even to eat."----again you twisted a passage talking about behavior (drunkard) and tried to make it sound as if the passage means anyone that drinks. It cleary says drunkard!
You said: "Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit." This one you actually got right, but note it again talks about being drunk, not merely drinking.
You said: "1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine."
The passage actually says, "2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt at teaching; 3not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for filthy lucre, but patient, not a brawler, not covetous".-------- It says not given to wine (meaning an addict) and you just added the "not near any wine" all together??? WOW. I hope you copied this stuff and didn't add stuff to Scripture on your own.
You said: "Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking. and Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods." ---- You're right it was combined with praising false gods, and if you'd read the text you'd see feasting was also combined with praising false gods.... so if you're going to be consistent with your logic you're going to have to give up food.
You said: "Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink."
The passage actually says, " 17Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength and not for drunkenness!"-----again you changed the meaning of the text all together.... it's talking about a behavior (drunkenness) and you tried to make it about the drink itself.
You said: "Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages."
The passage actually says, "19Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way. 20Be not among winebibbers, among riotous eaters of flesh;---- winebibber not a drinker of alcoholic beverage like you changed it to say.
You said: "Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps."
The passage is actually more of an allegory saying how Israel was defiled by foriegners and it's saying that wine from Sodom to Israel is like poison.... and just before that it also says the grapes from Sodom are poison... so by your logic you'll have to give up grapes.
So I don't doubt you have 100 more verses like these. It's easy to come up with verses to support you point when you don't actually quote the verse... but instead paraphrase it and change the meaning. For someone that was harping on people about not rightly dividing the Word of truth, sir you have embarrased yourself. If you just copied that list from a web site and want to take it down I'll gladly apologize... but if you take credit for that you infact are twisting the passages clearly in ways they weren't penned to do. You're putting your tradition (Christians shouldn't drink) over your regard for the Bible.
Please address these verses, or how you handled them I should say, before we continue. I'm more then happy to discuss this... but if you're going to twist what the Bible clearly says.... I'll probally just go have a beer and not take part in the discussion.
dk
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02-06-2008 04:35 AM
