Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Jim I am going to take up for HW he is trying to tweak the program in a way to bring participation back in the hunts I understand him fully. Not all of us live in the land of milk and honey wheather you know it or not you are fixing to loose a lot of southern states a lot are tired of driving up north to go to a major hunt loosing hunters at the rate we are is not good for any kc I can't write it like I mean it but like Joey said it its in ukc's hands now nothing else I need to say.

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I dont especially enjoy hacking on you Mr Moore but you say things that just leave me shaking my head. 750 plus enrolled sires and you question the interest in this program?

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

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Originally posted by H.W. Moore
It's ok Jim, sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. Here's a number that should really make you shake your head=30% of coonhound pups born are out of Performance sires! Or if you like the other way=70% of coonhound pups born are NOT out of Performance sires!! Either way it's hard to look at those numbers and NOT question the interest in this program..

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Somehow I think something is missing with the Performance Program. Reality is that it's non of our business what the numbers are. But only the people that know them can make the decisions on what small tweaks can be made for a big result.

Lets first make sure I understand how performance points are given out. There is a scale for the number of dogs entered and the number of points for each place. I assume there are a lot of hunts that its possible for no performance points are given out. The reason no performance dog was in the hunt. So it would be interesting to see what percentage of the dogs being hunted are Performance dogs.

Now there have been a lot of things thrown out on how to increase the number of performance dogs hunted. If you make the fund bigger but you make the number of dogs hunted bigger. There is no increase in point value. Might decrease.

Now if UKC came back and said that 75% of the dogs in hunts are performance dogs and receive points then there is room to increase the fund 25 to 50% fairly easy in my opinion and even if you took the performance dogs in the hunts to 100% they fund should be larger,

Here is what I would change. The Sire Fee is fine like it is but a slight increase could be considered. Say $150 and then try to capture 70% of the sires being used that are not in the yearly program by offering a one time breeding for $75 during the year.
Do away with the litter nomination since 76% of the litter owners are keeping a large number of pups out of fund by not nominating the litter.
Right now it reads you can nominate a litter and permanently nominate the pups for $150. Not sure how many are doing this but this is hurting the fund. That means any litter of over 4 pups is getting a deep discount for registering this way. The $150 break point is 30 for litter nomination and 4 pups at 30 each.

Once litter nomination is done then this make the price to permanently nominate a pup $40. That was 76% of the litters the people don't litter nominate can still find their way into the program. That could be a big fund increase.
Also you could keep take it to $60 after six months old and don't end it at one year. Have it $150 from a year to 18 months old.

Like I said those numbers would be a big increase to the yearly fund. Thing is and I don't have the numbers to know. If it increases dogs winning performance points it ends up a wash. Then again if most of the points are used up already then its a big boost to the fund.

How many hunts are held that all the entries get no points because none of the dogs are performance.
What is the average point value given out at a hunt. I think numbers I saw from 2015 that just over 2500 points were awarded. That number indicates most of the dogs hunted are nor performance registered. Because if all the dogs in the 4 top states were performance. Their winnings would add up to 2500 points.

So we come up with all these ways to increase the fund and then that increase the points given out and guess what. The point value don't go up. lol

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 08-08-2017 at 03:54 AM

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

I maybe should have broke it down a different way to show how the # of sires doesn't reflect the interest in the program .
750+ Performance sires/ less than 200 were used..

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: mcloud oklahoma
Posts: 152

just thinking most of performance sires are getting a check covering there fees. most $$ sires paying that 700.00 don't get money back without selling lots of pups and breeding every thing that comes in the yard. when we want to become like the other kcs are we going to have options for amount of hunt times 1hr,90min ect. when money is the driving factor it takes the family atmosphere out of it and if you look at there big hunt #s there programs aren't working imop. as far as the grnts I wish all breeds would look at the champions classic that the abtcha has been promoting. the b&t sectionals have increased and a lot of guys getting there grnts back out instead of just hunting major events. it would be nice to see a breed challenge hunt based on top performance dogs of each breed sectionals. might increase participation and sectional interest just a thought.

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

Incorrect. Most SIRES do not have enough pups hunted in the program to get any real return on their investment. Money should not be a driving factor it should be a motivating factor. $KC major hunts have had steady attendance & huge payouts since their inception, a better comparison would be local Friday/Saturday UKC hunt vs. a Tue/ Thursday $ hunt. I do agree the Abtcha has done an outstanding job..

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

I still think there should be a performance hunt with age classes and open class. Some people need goals to get fired up about. People who have performance pups have them to compete with. Period. We want to hunt and compete! Ukc has waited way too long to shake it up! It's too late to draw certain crowds that have a lot invested in $kc.

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

I agree with you Rob. I do however believe we can come up with a plan to entice some $ hunters to be more frequent visitors to the UKC hunts. We kinda missed a good opportunity with the rule change vote, but we can address that again in a few years and hopefully UKC will change its voting procedure. A race or championship format will help as well as better payouts.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

One comment from everyone is getting more dogs to the hunts. If all the numbers doubled. The amount of fees collected for the performance program fund doubled. But then also the amount of performance dogs being hunted doubled and they were won replacing the dogs winning now that were not performance dogs. The point value for the fund would be the same. Nothing changed for the hunter.

Example: The 2015 numbers shown about $250,000 in the fund with about 2500 points earned during the year.

About a return of $100 a point. Now we wave the magic wand and raise fees and get more dogs in the program and we get the numbers up to $500,000 in the fund. But now more performance dogs are in the hunts. 5000 points are earned durning the year, not 2500.

The point value is still $100 so after all the make over and everyone getting what they wanted. No increase in the payout.

I would love to know the percentage of performance points given out at hunts compared to the available points that would be given out if all dogs were performance. In 2015 there were about 2500 points given out. If every dog hunted was performance dog, would the total points be 5,000 or 10,000 points. How many points are being left on the table because they are won by non performance dogs.

Right now the numbers given show that most of the pups registered are not performance. Are most of the dogs hunted also not performance or is it the other way around and most are. That is a key question to that needs answered to determine the future.

I want to make certain, I have this straight.
Say you have a 16 dog hunt. All open dogs. 8 are performance and 8 are not.
If no performance dogs win their cast then no performance points are given out for that hunt.

With 2500 performance points earned in 2015. Thats indicates that percentage wise the number of performance dogs hunted or should say winning is pretty small.
Right now KY and Tn are probably having 30 hunts a month. Say they are all small hunts. You would think that 2 points a hunt are given out. Say they have 300 hunts a year (only used ten months) and thats 600 points. It would only take 4 states like TN to reach the 2500 amount of points that is given out.
There is a lot of incoming funds being left on the table with this program and there is a tremendous amount of possible points to win being left on the table. Doesn't paint a bright picture.
There is one quick way to increase the point value. Take a non performance dog to the hunts and beat the performance dogs. Every time you beat one you keeping points from being accumulated that lowers the overall points collected and raises the point value. lol

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
[B]One comment from everyone is getting more dogs to the hunts. If all the numbers doubled. The amount of fees collected for the performance program fund doubled. But then also the amount of performance dogs being hunted doubled and they were won replacing the dogs winning now that were not performance dogs. The point value for the fund would be the same. Nothing changed for the hunter.

B]

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

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[i]
Right now KY and Tn are probably having 30 hunts a month. Say they are all small hunts. You would think that 2 points a hunt are given out. [/B]

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Joey you have to be right because 2500 points for a year does not seem like a lot points are given out.

That means small hunts or no performance dogs winning.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Why in the world would a comp hunter buy a pup that wasn't Performanced? And why would someone breed their female to a male that the owner didn't think enough of to Performance.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Has anyone ever noticed the big difference between pups produced and pups permanately registered on the top Producer lists? Apparantly there are a lot of pups that don't even get registered period. And these are the pups out of the top studs. I wonder why that is. I wonder if Mr Gingrich based his percentages on pups produced or pups permanently registered?

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

I know a lot of people send off for pup papers as soon as they're born and then later lose several pups & sometimes entire litters. Also many young dogs are killed on the road, culled or whatever & never get permanent registered. I've sold pups outta top comp dogs to pleasure hunters who told me personally they'd never be registered..

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

2 registration options maybe the answer.
Option 1.$50 to Register and permanently nominate a pup out of a prp sire.
Option 2.$20 to Register a pup, whether it's performance or not with the understanding if entered in an event it will pay 2x the entry fee with 100% of extra fees being sent in and put in the Performance fund.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

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Originally posted by H.W. Moore
2 registration options maybe the answer.
Option 1.$50 to Register and permanently nominate a pup out of a prp sire.
Option 2.$20 to Register a pup, whether it's performance or not with the understanding if entered in an event it will pay 2x the entry fee with 100% of extra fees being sent in and put in the Performance fund.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
So $20 if my dog is nominated or $40 if my dog isn't paid up?
You keep saying this is all about raising the numbers of entries at these clubs but you keep coming up with more and better ways to send them running to the other KC's. I mean if you tell me my entry fee is double because I chose to pass on the program, well see yah later, I'm gone.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

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Originally posted by H.W. Moore

Option 2.$20 to Register a pup, whether it's performance or not with the understanding if entered in an event it will pay 2x the entry fee with 100% of extra fees being sent in and put in the Performance fund.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Last edited by JiM on 08-08-2017 at 06:54 PM

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Registered: Feb 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4548

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I'm certainly no math guy but I'm thinking "2× the entry fee" means a $20 entry fee would cost $40 under your plan if my dog isn't nominated. I'm not going for that.

And I'm getting a shot at $100 dollars right now with the program as is. Both of my dogs reg wins this year were 10 dog registered hunts that paid her 1 point for winning . Your plan doesn't seem to offer anything except higher fees.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

The more I think about it the less I believe the pp is the answer to getting numbers up, and the numbers coming up is all I care about. This is the fact we have to face. Our numbers across the whole sport are falling. There is a few things we can do but none of them are going to make a huge difference in building our numbers. We can address the fact that there are comp hunters out there going pleasure Hunting on the weekends instead of heading to a hunt, because they simply don't have enough insensitive to go or a dog that is finished.

A state race with a large purse at a national hunt could help a lot. We have no idea what the ukc hunt numbers are and the only way to find out is for someone to count through all of the last 12 months of bloodlines. That being said a $5 entry increase going to a national hunt could mean a huge increase in people at local hunts. Keep the win requirements for nch and grand the same. Hunt the grands with the nch and ever cast winner gets point towards the race. In doing this is I believe it would also increase the interest in the PP by simply increasing the amount of people at the hunts.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Bethel springs TN
Posts: 92

I agree and believe ukc is gonna have to start doing some 1 hour weeknight hunts. Noone is going to chase one race on weeknights and another on friday and saturday. State races with standings published monthly would be an interesting start.

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Registered: Dec 2016
Location: Ark/Miss
Posts: 524

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM


And I'm getting a shot at $100 dollars right now with the program as is. Both of my dogs reg wins this year were 10 dog registered hunts that paid her 1 point for winning . Your plan doesn't seem to offer anything except higher fees.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

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Originally posted by joey
The more I think about it the less I believe the pp is the answer to getting numbers up, and the numbers coming up is all I care about. This is the fact we have to face. Our numbers across the whole sport are falling. There is a few things we can do but none of them are going to make a huge difference in building our numbers. We can address the fact that there are comp hunters out there going pleasure Hunting on the weekends instead of heading to a hunt, because they simply don't have enough insensitive to go or a dog that is finished.

A state race with a large purse at a national hunt could help a lot. We have no idea what the ukc hunt numbers are and the only way to find out is for someone to count through all of the last 12 months of bloodlines. That being said a $5 entry increase going to a national hunt could mean a huge increase in people at local hunts. Keep the win requirements for nch and grand the same. Hunt the grands with the nch and ever cast winner gets point towards the race. In doing this is I believe it would also increase the interest in the PP by simply increasing the amount of people at the hunts.

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__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Last edited by JiM on 08-08-2017 at 09:36 PM

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