Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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quote:

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Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Here's a good example of a dog from 2 PR bred redbones. I personally think he looks cool. i'd love to have one that looks like it.

[/URL]

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I have a hard time believing the extreme colors are coming from very far back but I'm no expert. This was redbone country 30 years ago and we didn't see any of that. Never heard of it til Bruce had them black and tans two llitters. I Blamed it on the male he had shipped up from down south. And a couple pages back somebody posted a pedigree with dogs from the same breeder on his ped of black and tan bones.

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Donnie, not everyone is going to be completely honest. That is where we either believe in the DNA testing or live with UKC and registering as x-bred that which doesn't meet our standard. I can live with the latter because of how Corey presented how it is being handled. But the discussion here brought up, as Shane pointed to...bigger fish to fry. No matter the FAULT we have in our breed and having two different ideas on what makes it there is no doubt in my mind we are NOWHERE close to our roots with one of them when we started registering out litters. We have one group breeding to a standard and another breeding for a hunter hoping to meet the standard.

It may appear that I am a sore loser at first but nothing can be further from the truth...IF..I am getting beat by the same caliber of dog. Lets look at both groups attending our clubs. Whcih dogs enters the shows? How many of them dogs enter the hunts? How many hounds enter the night hunts that didn't enter the shows? How many of them hounds entering the night hunt didn't enter the show because they knew they had a fault and couldn't compete against a higher caliber of dog. Here lies my problem...I prefer to have a COON hound first. Maybe bench show judges can start paying more attention to a title of the dogs being entered and automatically give more preference to a hound holding a hunting title over one that just proves itself to meet a breed standard based on looks...ie not every event has a dual champion show BUT we can hold this hound higher because of it.

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I don't show dogs. I hunt them. I compete with them.But I do want to hunt a red dog that's not gonna have pups that are every color under the rainbow if they're bred. I've got no problem registering something xbred that don't meet the standards but I'm not sure I agree with their pups being reg back to redbones any other way but single registration. At least the papers are gonna show something was there that shouldn't have been. PR papers shouldn't be producing dogs half red/white dogs or perfect black and tans or somebody's gotsome eexplaining to do. Unless I am wrong and those colors are showing up from 5-7 generations back.

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Maybe I'll just hunt a red one and let the experts worry about the rest lol

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I show dogs WHEN I feel like supporting the club and may have a chance of winning. I knew Sunday when I showed I didn't have a chance...my young hound as feet webbed worse then a duck. But it was held at an event put on a youth sporting group at a local high school. (they had an Outdoor type event with vendors and invited our Club down).

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I can understand your frustration in the matter. It's kind of a weird process to wrap your head around. Honestly, when I was brought into the inaugural X-Bred Program meetings at UKC, I was like "Hell No!"

The problem with the original single registration processes was it was a very inaccurate way of registering dogs.

Take for example, a Black and Tan redbone. How easy do you think it would have been to have a Redbone of Black and Tan color, registered as a Black and Tan Coonhound. In short, it was VERY simple. Fundamentally, Black and Tan Coonhounds and Redbones are very similar. You present to the Black and Tan Breed Association a dog that looks like a Black and Tan that can Tree a coon and WHAM! Now you own a registered Black & Tan.

Likewise, with Walkers, English and Blueticks. English can be redticked, tri-colored, or blueticked. How many true Bluetick Coonhounds and Treeing Walker Coonhounds could have been registered as English?? ALOT. Hard Time Speck was a good example of that.

Lastly, cross bred dogs that resemble one parental breed or the other. How many Redbone/Walker crosses could have been registered as Redbone Coonhounds because they were solid red and tree a coon? Is it accurate to register a cross bred as one breed or the other?

Basically, UKC identified this issue and went about attempting to reclassify these odd ball dogs and made a more accurate registration process for them. In turn, it will help us make our "purebred" dogs stronger, I believe. No more HIDDEN outside influence. I think that is a big obstical we are fighting today with some of our off colored pups. At least now, we should be able to look at our papers and easily indicate where that outside influence actually is.

I like the program for that simple fact alone. That's what really sold me on it. I hope that insight might help afirm it's leginamency with a few of you as well.

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Are the black and tan pups coming from just one line or strain of Redbones? Can they be traced back to their origin? And when you linebreed that line, you get the black and tan pups? Or do they come from several different strains?
I guess that what I am asking is, does anyone know what dogs have the recessive black and tan genes? Should a stud dog owner tell female owners that his stud "might" produce an off colored pup. Should a female owner tell potential pup buyers their pups carry the recessive gene and "might" produce off colored pups later on. Or should the buyer beware? Maybe that is something people should ask before they purchase a pup or breed to a stud.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-09-2017 at 02:15 PM

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That's an interesting concept. I can speak from expierence, I didn't have a clue that my female was potentially able to throw something like that.. And she only reproduced off colored pups with one of the five studs she was bred to. Is the stud I bred her to solely to blame? Or was it just the perfect combination of recessive genes that led to a chocolate box of different puppy colors??

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Good point Richard because EVERY off-spring has that in their gene. When one line breeds, as I do we not only double up on the good traits but also the bad. Have we ever stopped to look at what strain has the most amount of winners in a night hunt. THANKS to UKC with allowing us to x-breed we just maybe see more of them as well. Not the by breed but by STRAIN/LINE. As I have tried to say, I am not against registering my off-spring as x-bred thanks to clearification by UKC and Corey. I am not breeding to a show standard but to a standard I KNOW produces COON hounds, competition maybe not all of them BUT they have the desire. Something that seperates many from those that take a "shot in the dark" hoping to get the next best thing to either be dual purpose or as a show. To me, off-color isn't a bad thing, the system is broke (standard-for what I am breeding for) not the system of what I am trying to achieve.

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Corey, no your female is not entirely to blame but she carries 50% of the responsibility. In the future, you might want to consider that before you pick a stud. That is, unless you are like some and just don't care what color the pups are. You might be able to furnish some clues as to where the off color is coming from by looking at the pedigree of the off colored pups since your female didn't produce any from her other matings. The same is true for anyone with off colored pups. But I don't know if they would be comfortable sharing such info. Of course, we will never know exactly where or how far back they come from but we should be able to get a general idea.

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Richard, I don't believe it really matters how far back it goes. What matters is it is in the genes and it isn't going away unless of course we cull the possibly the BEST Redbone because of color. You say Corey's female is only 50% problem. I agree. You words are saying she should never be used again because she carries a "disqualifing" gene. I say that is hogwash. The disqualifing gene is on that strain that one has to work for 3 years before it even starts to consider to take a track 5 yards. Wonder how many of the BEST dogs were culled because of your logic. I never culled any of mine....THANKJS to UKC, my culls could still be registered to do what they were bred for. CHKC calls them by their parents registered breed, (if the same) and ACHA, last I heard is going to make rules regarding those that are shown MUST be hunted in the night hunt.

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The breeding of a certain strain is not going away. It has proven itself to be a winner in some eyes just as much as those that just meets a standard regardless of its hunting ability. However, the culling I would be doing, as you suggested about Corey's is EXACTLY what should be done if the latter but the culling should be with a bullet.

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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quote:

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Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
I have a hard time believing the extreme colors are coming from very far back but I'm no expert. This was redbone country 30 years ago and we didn't see any of that. Never heard of it til Bruce had them black and tans two llitters. I Blamed it on the male he had shipped up from down south. And a couple pages back somebody posted a pedigree with dogs from the same breeder on his ped of black and tan bones.

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Autumn Clements

'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH’PR’BUELL’S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
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When a dog of a wrong color is being accepted back into a breed the breed association has to approve it do they not?

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'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH’PR’BUELL’S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
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No Autumn, I believe Corey answered that already. the breed association has been taken out. The dog of color will ALWAYS be x-bred. However, its off-spring that meets the standard is registered to its breed as shown on the pedigree. UKC has the final authority. The PR registration does hold some meaning. The pedigree will show the lineage, the x-breed just means they don't meet the breed standard.

Last edited by ibrobiinhood on 02-09-2017 at 05:28 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by ibrobiinhood
No Autumn, I believe Corey answered that already. the breed association has been taken out. The dog of color will ALWAYS be x-bred. However, its off-spring that meets the standard is registered to its breed as shown on the pedigree. UKC has the final authority. The PR registration does hold some meaning. The pedigree will show the lineage, the x-breed just means they don't meet the breed standard.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ibrobiinhood
....You words are saying she should never be used again because she carries a "disqualifing" gene.....

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Oh my goodness, and I thought that my reading comprehension skills are bad. Where in the world did you get that? I never said or implied anything even close to that. I implied that it would be nice to know when making a decision as to what male or female to breed to or buy a pup out of. Just like how many titled offspring they have. There are a lot of things to consider and if 2 studs were equal in all other categories but one threw a lot of off colored pups I would breed to the one that didn't.

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I actually have the first litter to be registered through ukc which just so happened to be out of the dog pictured above. The dam had 4 pups. 3 of which were red with very lil white chest and one black n tan with lil white chest. 3 was registered redbones without the "pr" status due to sire being registered xbred because of coloration. And the black n tan was registered xbred. So in all reality ukc has put together a decent system in my opinion as far as this goes. If one only want "pr" dogs than they can do so however those who have a great off colored redbone can still utilize it in they're breeding if they choose and still be able to have registered redbones. It's all one preference. By not having "pr" in front of said dogs one knows right away that somewhere at some point something was different and either they except it or they don't. Again I believe ukc has done all they can do to be fair all the way around

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quote:

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Originally posted by Larry D Walker
UKC only started the x-breed association,,,and set the perimeters to earn PR status again..

But its totally up to each breed association as to weather or not they will except them back into there association or not..Or atleast that's the way it was originally set up..

And I am not sure if it has ever been voted on by our association or not ????

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'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
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My understanding was they would never go back to "pr" status. Papers already prove they're redbones. So the percentage requirements would have already been met. Once "pr" is gone it's gone. The percentage requirements was set for actual cross bred hounds, to be able to get them back to the breed they belong which has nothing to do with "pr" status. Now again that's just they way I understood what they told me. By no means does that mean I'm correct

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Sure thing!

Yes, dogs with outside influence can gain 'PR' status back.

But only a few situations within the X-Bred Program will warrant gaining this status back.

Those are third generation offspring from an original cross bred dog and (I believe) offspring of off colored dogs.

Any dog that is registered as an X-Bred Coonhound will never have the ability to gain 'PR' status. However, the lineage that stems from this dog might.

Let's look at a true crossbred dog, for example. A Redbone/Walker male. This male will never carry a 'PR' status, this dog has a 50/50 pedigree.

But let's say we take that male and breed him to a purebred Redbone female. The pups produced from this cross will also not be eligible to gain 'PR' status or be registered as Redbone Coonhounds, even though genetically speaking they are 75% Redbone.

If we take a male from this 75% cross, and breed it to a purebred Redbone female, THEN, and ONLY THEN, will THESE pups be able to gain 'PR' status and have the ability to be registered as Redbone Coonhounds.

Basically, at this point, the responsibility of the breed associations fall into place. These puppies that are 80 some percent Redbone will be eligible for what is called a "Breed Transfer".

The breed associations decide whether or not to allow "Breed Transfers" within a particular year. If they say yes, eligible dogs will then be transferred into the appropriate breed. If they say no to allowing breed transfers, then hose eligible dogs either hang in limbo, or can be registered as X-Bred Coonhounds.

The Breed Association ultimately has the control in this situation. Breed Transfers are $50. UKC gets $25. The Breed Association gets $25.

Offspring produced by an off colored dog are a little different. Provided that off colored dogs are bred to a dog of the same breed, they can produce puppies that do not need to go through the Breed Transfer process. The fact is that off colored dogs are still considered "purebred", they are just registered as X-Bred Coonhounds because they do not meet the written standards of their breed. Puppies produced my off colored dogs MUST meet the standards themselves, otherwise they would have to be registered as an X-Bred Coonhound too.

I would advise anyone that is seeking more information on what qualifies for Breed Transfers or whatever to view the narrated PowerPoint that I posted a link in this thread. It will give you all of the information I provided.

The only thing that I can honestly say that I'm not 100% clear on is whether or not puppies produced by off colored dogs do in fact gain 'PR' status back. I would assume that they would, considering the sire and the dam in this case are the same breed. They would fundamentally never "lose" their 'PR' status, just the sire or the dam would have, depending on which one is off colored.

Hope this answered any questions you guys might of had!

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Corey Gruver
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I wanna know who the big red and white make is off of,

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'Pr' Lucking's Code Red Mountain Dew ( Owned by chad porter and myself) ( Daughter of Desperado) 2 1st place wins ukc nite hunt. 1 best of show with comp , bench show.

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NT.CH.CH.LUCKING'S KN. LAKE TROOPER
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he is out of GRNITECH 'PR' Locked N Loaded Pebble

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Corey Gruver
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That big red and white dog is out of Grntch Wade's Big Red HTX and Grntch Locked and Loaded Pebble. That litter surprised us all. I have told everybody that has ever bred to Red that he throws white chest and toes and occasionally a black and Tan .I have also always took them hunting with Red ,often the same day as I bred their female ,and always treed coon . No excuses , lies or smoke screens here .I just plain like to hunt and always have . Red was truly the best reproducer of ,drive ,intellegence ,stay put tree dogs, hunt speed ,track speed and volume of any dog I have ever owned.Not all his pups make it ,but most ,at the very least make really nice coondogs.He also crossed the same on every single female no matter how they were bred.He's dead now but I'll always have some of his blood here. I would never try to push this stuff on anyone .I don't really care about that ,but I will back every dog that comes from my place and help you out if I can.I will say this though, in my experience most of the best dogs I have dealt with in the redone breed have thrown off colored dogs .Most are black and Tan ,lots of pups come out with white chest spots and a white toe or two.The x-breed program is great,instead of just culling for color you can at least give them a chance to see if they might turn out.If they suck ,cull them.I believe there should be a standard to adhere to as far as looks and hunt . However ,I'm not going to tell someone that shows a really good looking dog that they have a cull , redbones have won world show titles but have never won a world hunt yet.Everybody has something to contribute is all I'm saying.

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