Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

That sure does look perfectly clear to my little pea brain. Sometimes I think that you can be too smart.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1876

i still haven't heard a answer on the 2 bloody dogs when we heard a all out and out fight i guess they just stubbed there toes must have been the 2 with no blood who knows ?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Rule says that when you have a dog fight you scratch the aggressor. If the aggressor is not known then you scratch "all dogs involved". Now someone would pretty much have to be on the cast to know what dogs were involved. With that said every cast I have been on every dog at the tree ended up getting scratched when a fight broke out.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5924

quote:

---

Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Fighting OR attempting to fight. To scratch for attempting to fight requires aggressive behavior AND interference.

Interference is not required to scratch a dog for fighting.

---

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 1169

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Yeah, scratching for a growl alone would not meet the criteria of "attempting to fight"

What about if I got in your face at a hunt and told u who I thought u was and what u was gonna do and if you have a problem with me u can @#$&+$©©£"*;׶∆∆€^°|~π√ !!!!!!!!¡!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And flinch towards ya !
Is that not attempting anything ? ??
Am I not " growling" ?

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Donnie you also need to read the definition because it sure doesn't say or it says and.. .

---

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5924

quote:

---

Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
I'm waving the white flag lol. I give.

---

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

Lol. You may not have a PHD in English as you put it, but you certainly have a PHD in human nature. You maintain composure at all times when posting on this forum and show a great deal of wisdom in your discussions. Dealing with a bunch of coonhunter isn't an easy task, but you handle it wonderfully. Thank you. Dave

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Registered: Feb 2018
Location:
Posts: 160

After reading through these comments there is one rule that jumps out at me and that is scratching dogs without seeing what’s going on. I’m pretty laid back and easy to get a long with but I’m pretty certain I’d be on the Indefinite list if this happened at a hunt that meant something.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9267

You know what's interesting about some of these topics? Most rule definitions and scoring dogs based on using good judgement is not anything new. Far from it. Many of these "how to's" have been around since way before I came along. There's many things you're not required to, nor could you, prove 100% when judging dogs. Some situations simply require using sound judgement.

I'll bet many would find it interesting to go back to the 70's and 80's and read the monthly Advisor Columns written by the late Dale Brandenburger and Steve Fielder on some of these same topics. We might all be surprised to find a lot of "the more things change, the more they stay the same". I certainly find many of their writings interesting in that way. Sure, some things have changed but a lot has not.

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Team Mafia 2
After reading through these comments there is one rule that jumps out at me and that is scratching dogs without seeing what’s going on. I’m pretty laid back and easy to get a long with but I’m pretty certain I’d be on the Indefinite list if this happened at a hunt that meant something.

---

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5924

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Well, think back to the last time you saw or even heard about someone getting scratched for off game that wasn't seen and I think you will be safe about never getting on that list as long as you live. Or are you talking about SFF?

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
The big concern is that now someone will. Until one of the latest advisor columns no one even knew this was possible or within the rules.

---

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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Oh my goodness, I thought that everyone knew that you didn't have to see a dog fight to scratch dogs in UKC. I learned that 20 years ago at Autumn Oaks.
Three dogs were treed and a fight broke out. When we got to the tree, they had gone back to treeing. One handler was adamant that his dog was not involved and wanted the other 2 dogs scratched so he questioned the no call and we took it back to MOH. MOH said , was there a fight" and then, "which dogs were involved". We answered maybe but we didn't see it. MOH said, "all three are scratched". I learned that night that you didn't have to see the fight in UKC. Now in that other KC, you have to see the fight. Maybe if you want to hunt with "light broke" dogs and dogs that will run a deer for a mile and then fall off and tree a coon, you should stay on that side of the ocean. The Amateurs like dogs that are fun to hunt with.

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: off the res.
Posts: 3422

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other. [/B]

---

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

You guys/gals really want to take up space on the final rules ballet just to change a word from or to and, or must see. We only get a shot at this every 3 years.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
I've got a whole field of stones for anyone here that has run out of stones to throw. Come and pick all you want. Have all sizes. LOL!

---

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 1169

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
You know what's interesting about some of these topics? Most rule definitions and scoring dogs based on using good judgement is not anything new. Far from it. Many of these "how to's" have been around since way before I came along. There's many things you're not required to, nor could you, prove 100% when judging dogs. Some situations simply require using sound judgement.

I'll bet many would find it interesting to go back to the 70's and 80's and read the monthly Advisor Columns written by the late Dale Brandenburger and Steve Fielder on some of these same topics. We might all be surprised to find a lot of "the more things change, the more they stay the same". I certainly find many of their writings interesting in that way. Sure, some things have changed but a lot has not.

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other.

---

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Donnie you also need to read the definition...

---

Oh my goodness, you actually got me to get my rulebook out and read it...
6. Scratching offenses
Dog Related Offenses
a.
b. For fighting "or" attempting to fight* during the authority of the judge.

Now when you go to the definitions

*18. Definitions
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing Aggressive Behavior "and" 2) interfering with another dog during the authority of the judge.

Now where in the world is the problem? Your dog can be scratched for fighting "or" attempting to fight, either one.
In order for your dog to be scratched for attempting to fight, your dog must show aggresive behavior "and" interfere with another dog's ability to hunt or tree. He can't be scratched for just showing aggresive behavior and he can't be scratched for just interfering.
With this wording you have to actually see the aggresive behavior to know if there is interference but you don't have to actually see a dog fight.
Now what would you change?

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert


*18. Definitions
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing Aggressive Behavior "and" 2) interfering with another dog during the authority of the judge.

Now where in the world is the problem? Your dog can be scratched for fighting "or" attempting to fight, either one.
In order for your dog to be scratched for attempting to fight, your dog must show aggresive behavior "and" interfere with another dog's ability to hunt or tree. He can't be scratched for just showing aggresive behavior and he can't be scratched for just interfering.
With this wording you have to actually see the aggresive behavior to know if there is interference but you don't have to actually see a dog fight.
Now what would you change?

---

__________________
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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 1169

Oh my Goodness,,,
Few of you have definitely made me look at this differently.
Thanks for the "word study" !
It does change things.........

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5924

Where most that I've talked to are having issue with the fighting
brought up by advisor August 2018 edition is that it doesn't meet the guidelines that have been laid out by the rules. The not having to see it to scratch leaves way to much room for corruption. If you are in a hunt and hear dogs blowing or maybe even fighting are they attempting to fight or fighting? What are they fighting each other or a coon or another animal that has came into the tree? You hear this commotion and now hear nothing, UKC has rules time rules to follow on how often a dog has to bark. Are dogs now rolled up on the ground or finishing off killing a coon? UKC has set guidelines to follow to head to a tree if a fight is suspected so that the culprit or culprits may be caught. It is unlikely that in a hunting judge situation that a dog would ever be scratched from a distance but giving a non-hunting judge this power is a different ball game, the same with scratching for off game that hasn't been seen.
The word "and" in the attempting to fight I'm sure was put there for a reason so that dogs are eligible except in more extreme situations to continue to hunt and unreasonable scratches to eliminate competition do not happen. Many of you are well aware of the scratch mentality engrained in way to many participants for the sole reason to eliminate the competition. Why give these types more power?

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4254

Also , if a dog growls on the lead i can assure u he'll growl and or do more on a tree when he is in adrenaline mode.


How can you be sure of this? YOU CAN"T BE. Speculation on your part, and that is not scratchable. Speculation only holds up in the eyes of the speculator. Now here is something that you can be sure of, a growling on the lead dog of mine won't be scratched. There is no interference, and the is no attempt to fight. Rules just don't allow what you are suggesting. Heck, if we can allow speculation, everyone else's dogs ran a deer, treed in a hole, babbled all the way to that tree we know was slick when they got there. Oh yeah, speculation can be really fun to hunt with huh?

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Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5924

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Rules just don't allow what you are suggesting. Heck, if we can allow speculation, everyone else's dogs ran a deer, treed in a hole, babbled all the way to that tree we know was slick when they got there. Oh yeah, speculation can be really fun to hunt with huh?

---

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER, 2025 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4254

a growling dog be sure to fight later is speculation and that was the point of the post. As for the not seeing them fight, I agree you can scratch, as long as you know the two involved. If there are four dogs at a tree, and only two were fighting, and you can't see it, only hear it, you can not by the rules scratch them. It clearly says all involved, not all in area. That is a rule that is used wrong a lot in some areas of the country. JMO, but it counts a lot of times.

__________________
Robert " Rock" Johnson

Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

Bright Eye Lights


Treeing Walkers

912-663-5287 cell (perfered)

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