Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Oh my goodness, there is another example. Raising the Sire fee only means 100 Sire's drop out. But you then have to figure how many fewer pups get paid up from those sires and subtract that money also.
Before you make any fee changes, first you have to know where the money comes from.
1. How much comes from Sire Nomination.
A. How much comes from $100 nomination.
B. How much from $200 nomination.
C. How much from $400 nomination.
D. How many sires have 5 Or more litters nominated.
E. How many Sires have 3-4 litters nominated.
F. How many Sires have 2 litters nominated.
G. How many Sires have only 1 litter nominated
H. How many Sires don't have any litters nominated.
2. How much from puppy nomination.
A. How much from breeder paying up the whole litter.
B. How much from before 6 months.
C. How much from 6 mos to 1 year.
D. How many pups are never paid up.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

E. How many dogs are deceased that never will get a dime. That were paid up.


Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

Yes, very many variables. If Sire fees raise $50 a year and 200 studs get out the fund is still ahead. If Sire fees raise $50 & 1 time breedings are allowed by non performance studs and 100 people take advantage the fund will benifit significantly..

__________________
Shane

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

DogWhisper, I am not advocating that at all. Without numbers we really dont know what to change and what those changes should cost to make the program better.
I think there should be an early fee and late fee for yearly nomination. Then a single litter fee with a cap on the number of litters that can be registered using the single breeding fee.

These type of programs are for the deamers. There is a cost for dreaming. Ask those that have had dogs in the program for years and never bred a pup or had a pup earn one Performance Point. You dont want to eliminate the dreamers and their fees from the program and make it so their cost is just a modest one if their dream comes true and someone wants to breed to their dog, with a cheap one time fee. But there are dogs that are bred just once or twice during the year for many reasons. Those should be included in the program for a fee that is reasonable but discourages that from being used as the normal enrollment. You want those dogs registered early as that is where the bulk of the money comes from. The Dreamers.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 07-23-2018 at 06:58 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Oh my goodness!! So you are taking money from the deseased to pay the living Isent that like robbing Peter to pay Paul 🙀



Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:

---

Originally posted by shane_atchison
Everyone will benefit from changes including UKC. Elimanating checks under $50, slight increases to Sire fees, allowing 1 time breedings & allowing 12-18 mo. old pups to participate should add $20,000-$30,000 yearly..

---

__________________
Shane

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

A few years back, Allen crunched the numbers and made some changes to keep the point values above $100. He did an excellant job and the point values have hovered right at that $100 mark. But that hasn't done anything to increase local hunt entries so some are wanting to make changes to increase point values. It is simple math. You have to either increase revenue or decrease points earned. You can increase fees in an attempt to increase revenue. But there is a fine line between increasing fees without decreasing participation which might actually decrease revenue. The same holds true for decreasing number of points earned. And decreasing participation in the program will certainly decrease local hunt numbers.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: ohio
Posts: 772

After 5 days seeing some of the questions that should of been in first 5 posts. You guys are coming around.

I see a lot of people are wanting super SS results while getting in on the cheap....

I was under the understanding that this program was every hunter friendly not the cutthroat of big money programs......

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Washington State/ Alabama
Posts: 604

Performance money should be paid out to Slam winners as well...Here in the NW we only have slams because we don't have enough people participating to run registered, night champion and Grand night champion classes.

Maybe you should hire Richard to be a cost analyst. He's got some good ideas.

__________________
PR’ DEE’S BUSHWAKIN CYRUS
BUSHWACKER X RING THE BELL

PR’ DEE’S HARDTIME THUNDER CLOUD
RED CLOUD X SMALL TOWN BINGO STAR

DEE POWELL
509-393-5111 CELL

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

quote:

---

Originally posted by shane_atchison
I feel like $200+ dollar performance points will help attendance on the local level. Interest in the Performance program & hunt attendance has been falling for years if changes dont work they can at least say they tried..

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Now how about increasing participation which will increase revenue and possibly increase local hunt numbers? But again you have to go back to the numbers.

1. You have to identify what Sire owners are participating and why.
2. You have to identify what Sire owners are not participating and why not.
3. You have to identify what Dam owners are nominating their litters and why.
4. You have to identify what Dam owners are not nominating their litters and why not.
5. You have to identify what pup buyers are not nominating their pups and why not.

Now this can be done by UKC but will be very time consuming and therefore costly. And again any changes to increase the participation from those participating must not stop the ones already in the program.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
Oh my goodness!! So you are taking money from the deseased to pay the living Isent that like robbing Peter to pay Paul 🙀
Tar

---

Tarbaby, it isn't robbing if they pay it willingly. Do you nominate your litters? Do you pay up your pups?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Maybe it would help Allen if we could start one post that said,

I enroll my Sire because....

I don't enroll my Sire because.....

I nominate my litters because.....

I don't nominate my litters because.....

I nominate any pup that I buy because....

I don't pay to nominate the pups that I buy because....

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

No I don't now Richard mind you this was years ago but I had the stud and the dam raised the pups and sold them when they were cashing good checks I got crums. It wasn't worth it to me and people would not pay their pups up like they should have I don't go to enough hunts to make it worth it now but like Bruce said we don't have the numbers I myself think there is plenty enough money in the program already to make changes why is it y'all feel like people that are already paying in should have to pay in more to make Sombody else's buissnes thrive ? Like last year before the ss $$$ called the breeders wanting donations so they could pay the purses I thought that was what the escrow and entry fees were for Sombody is living to high on the hog.


Just my opinion

Tarbaby

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Pendleton, IN
Posts: 1365

There is no relevancy to the program because everyone that participates (earns a PP) gets something. Create some competition. Create some prestige. Otherwise, continue to waller in participation mediocrity. Make PP open to all dogs that have paid up. Make them available at every hunt so each hunter can attend local hunts and still earn points. Start honoring the dogs with the highest points per age division through age 3 and allow dogs over 3 to be in an open division. If this mimics the current Purina Program then combine the two. Is the current Purina Program even relevant to hunters? The Performance Program could potentially make pushing a gr nt at a local level relevant.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:

---

Originally posted by nitehunter2004
Shane how many studs or performance litters have you paid up in the performance program?
My Tim.

---

__________________
Shane

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar

1. I had the stud and the dam raised the pups and sold them when they were cashing good checks I got crums. It wasn't worth it to me
2. people would not pay their pups up like they should have
3. I don't go to enough hunts to make it worth it now
Tarbaby

---

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 07-23-2018 at 08:15 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Maybe it would help Allen if we could start one post that said,

I enroll my Sire because....

I don't enroll my Sire because.....

I nominate my litters because.....

I don't nominate my litters because.....

I nominate any pup that I buy because....

I don't pay to nominate the pups that I buy because....

---

__________________
Shane

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

For the people advocating paying winners at the local hunts...
1. You don't know how much money is in the fund or what points are worth until the end of the year.
2. The club's don't have the money. It isn't even all collected until the end of the year.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Richard I am not being negative they ain't anybody wants to fix it more than me you don't see me trying to fix the other two now back about 3 yrs ago do you like prize fights ? While the other two kc's were having a turf war ukc had a chance to score a knock out in the first round all they had to do was make a few changes that I feel would have increased participation a little rule change or two a little pr and hype nothing that really would have even cost much money but it would have increased participation instead for one reason or anouther they drug their heels either it wasn't best for business or they wasn't paying attention because they missed that knockout. Now you have low interest and low attendance not just in ukc but the other two at the local level people been eating off the same menus too long. The money men are dominating all the races because the little guy can't compete with them.


Now how to fix it ukc has always been about good ole family fun for the average joe ( like me ) bring that back ( ukc already knows how ) let the other two fight it out participation will go up and the rest will fix itself.

Just my opinion again

Tarbaby

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

quote:

---

Originally posted by shane_atchison
1 stud, 1 litter, 8-10 pups under 6mo, 4-6 pups over 6mo.
How bout you?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Shane, is it "worth your trouble" to go to a coon hunt. How much time do you spend getting your dog ready? How much time do you spend driving to and from a coon hunt? How much time do you spend during the hunt? How much does all of this cost?
As I said, it is all a matter of perception. How much time and effort do you spend filling out the paperwork to nominate a pup? How much does it cost? How much does a win at a hunt with 5 dogs pay? It all depends on how you look at it Or how it is presented.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 820

Allen, what is the actual percentage of pups paid up in the performance program versus the number of pups eligible for the performance program ?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1745

Bruce .....sounds like u want to alienate certain......
breeders from the program....like the ones who breed for themselves produceing 1 maybe 2 litters a year using their own stock.
Breeders who DO NOT BREED for the public.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Shane, is it "worth your trouble" to go to a coon hunt. How much time do you spend getting your dog ready? How much time do you spend driving to and from a coon hunt? How much time do you spend during the hunt? How much does all of this cost?
As I said, it is all a matter of perception. How much time and effort do you spend filling out the paperwork to nominate a pup? How much does it cost? How much does a win at a hunt with 5 dogs pay? It all depends on how you look at it Or how it is presented.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged