Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I've looked through all my Advisors back to August of '55 and can't find where this has ever been addressed. Lets just go with the commonly used version and leave it at that.

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Registered: Oct 2003
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Posts: 211

Todd: I have to give you some credit. I think you are seeing the light. I wonder what Steve would say if we asked him if he trained you on this one? I think maybe someone interpreted someone wrong, but who knows, im usually wrong.Get this cleared up NOW.

merlin

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Darrell, I see your point exactly now and it is a very good one. I believe 5g opens up room for another advisor on the subject regardless of what previous advisors have said because this could be an interpretation of rule 5 instead of the other one. Maybe they could say something along the lines of Rule 5 is the only time you can delete points etc??

However, if they do use that the wording of the shut out rule has to be changed ASAP really because it is very explicit and says what you can and can not do for that specific situation. It's kinda like the "no dog to receive minus points for coming into the tree after the judge arrives". There are plenty of rules to minus a dog for coming in, quitting a track etc but since that is so specific to that situation we can't use them. No dog means no dog and it doesn't matter what else happens, if it got there after the judge arrived it can not be minused unless dogs treeing are awarded plus points. Any time a rule tells you exactly what to do for a situation like that it automatically takes precedence over all other rules. Another thing about rules is that prohibitions are stronger than permissions. In other words a rule can give you permission to do something in one place, but that doesn't mean that's the only time you are permitted to do that, but, a prohibition means that it can never be done.

Without an advisor to the contrary the "can not be scored plus or minus unless they tree on a different tree" would take precedence over 5g. The "can not" is prohibitive and means you can not score them at any time unless they meet a certian criteria, and because 5g is permissive and is telling you what to do when they come into a tree they were shut out on, not what to do if they don't make a tree. Therefore 5g as it is now would not hold up as a way to give the dog the minus it deserves for quitting a track and just being lucky he didn't strike till another dog treed.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

quote:

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Originally posted by todd kellam
O.K., O.K., Allen is going back through the old Advisors to see if it's in print. I'm pretty sure it is. That's the way I was taught and you all know who I learned the rules from.

If it's not in print, Allen can address this issue in his next Advisor however he wants and then you'll have it in black and white. Either way is fine with me. When it's interpreted in the Advisor, that's what we will go by.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm not too big to make a mistake.

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Sorry Elvis, my mistake. I was checking through the Playboy Advisor instead of the Bloodlines Advisor. Prolly why it took me so long.....

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Sorry Elvis, my mistake. I was checking through the Playboy Advisor instead of the Bloodlines Advisor. Prolly why it took me so long.....

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Mentioned this rule interp at a club last night aand about got run out of the place. One things for shore, your shutout dog quits a track at that club, you WILL get minused and there's no way I'm taking that one back to the MOH.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Just for arguments sake...

Dog D is shut out on a tree holding 75 strike. Dog's A, B, and C are led off and 8 started (why, I don't know since he can't be minused). Dog D opens and dogs are recast and struck in. Now what?

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Registered: Aug 2004
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Darrell I asked the same question at the begining of this thread.You're options are limitless. lol

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
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quote:

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Originally posted by Darrell
Just for arguments sake...

Dog D is shut out on a tree holding 75 strike. Dog's A, B, and C are led off and 8 started (why, I don't know since he can't be minused). Dog D opens and dogs are recast and struck in. Now what?

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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Gadsden AL.
Posts: 24

it said a dog can not get minus or plussed on that tree if he goes to that tree but if dog does not go to that tree he will get minused if he is holding strike points

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hersburger, don't lose any sleep waiting to see a judge minus one and delete the other. Unless you draw Rip or Elvis....and just happen to have a dog get shutout and recasted to, you could prolly die of old age ten times over and never see it come up. I brought this up at a club last Friday nite and they were still laughing at me on Saturday nite. One way I'd try to use that rule in a hunt.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: kansas
Posts: 1771

Was there ever going to be a different answer by UKC to this question or are we continueing to leave it wrong?????????

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Orangeburg, SC
Posts: 196

I've been waiting patiently to see UKC's rule interpretation printed in Black and White in the Advisor.
Dec. Jan. & Feb. issues have come and gone with nothing referencing this rule.

How about it UKC? Put this to rest.

__________________
"Believe Nothing You Hear and Only Half of What You See."

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 129

Wow I don't know how I missed out on this fun discussion. LOL

I would have scored it like Elvis and Rip as I'd seen/heard this discussed as a loophole for a dog getting out of taking minus that it deserves. The rules aren't perfect as we all know so I just accepted it and never really gave it much more thought.

I do agree though that it would be nice for UKC to fix this via a new interpretation. Although the reading of the rule leaves little room for interpretation. Personally I've never seen this rule get loopholed, but if the stars line up right, the hole is there.

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Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

When you're in up over your head, the first thing to do is close your mouth.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: West Tenn.
Posts: 484

I had this happen on a cast the other night. I had to explain this ruling to the cast. The handler with the loophole was all for it and another disagreed with the rule as well did I , but a rule is a rule like it or not.

I do understand that this is still being looked into for re-wording or possibly being deleted.

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Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 229

btt

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Tree Rock'n Blues

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Wow, I haven't looked at this in a while. A lot of good points were brought up, but it all comes down to that one sentence that says "cannot receive plus or minus unless.." Like I said before, I won the cast and the state championship when the other dog got minused. I brought it up at the clubhouse and everyone there except me said minus the dog. I wasn't going to argue with them when they were giving me all that free stuff for winning, but it does go to show you that a rule interpetation can make a big difference. If I was the one who would have taken the minus, there would have been a question and probably a formal complaint. Looks to me that I was right. All you guys that think you know every rule and comment on every question on here may have learned something. It also goes to show you that if you feel strongly about something thats not right, follow the proper procedure to correct it. If the guy would have listened to me, he would have won the cast.

Tim

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btt

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Hey, it resurfaced again! This was a dandy. For all you interested check out another thread/poll in regards to this rule.

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Registered: Apr 2007
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You people have got to kidding me!!! I guess you have to have alittle commom sense, if the dog does not bark in 8 it is MINUSED just as jim said, the only way he is deleted is if he comes into the tree the other dogs were being scored on. The only way you put a line on the card through under or over the strike is if he comes into the tree being scored. Make it simple for some of the simpler minds and leave the line off the card until he actually gets deleted. If the dog is struck and splitting from other dogs when you come off tree being scored you walk 1 minute and put the 8 on him. If 8 gets him minus, if he walks in MINUS he has quit a track. You people think what you want and question what you want if Im judging you will be getting minused I think the line is confusing too many of you, when the line did not belong on the card anyway, if the judge cannot remember that 1 dog struck after other dogs treed you need a new judge!!!! Get real people Jeremiah Glaze

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by brian gilley
You people have got to kidding me!!! I guess you have to have alittle commom sense, if the dog does not bark in 8 it is MINUSED just as jim said, the only way he is deleted is if he comes into the tree the other dogs were being scored on. The only way you put a line on the card through under or over the strike is if he comes into the tree being scored. Make it simple for some of the simpler minds and leave the line off the card until he actually gets deleted. If the dog is struck and splitting from other dogs when you come off tree being scored you walk 1 minute and put the 8 on him. If 8 gets him minus, if he walks in MINUS he has quit a track. You people think what you want and question what you want if Im judging you will be getting minused I think the line is confusing too many of you, when the line did not belong on the card anyway, if the judge cannot remember that 1 dog struck after other dogs treed you need a new judge!!!! Get real people Jeremiah Glaze

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Registered: Apr 2007
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This is the stupidest BS I have ever heard of, why would you delete a dog that struck a track and went a seperate direction (split) and could not keep the time off or came back into you, I have never heard of this before now. He is subject to minus or plus he is struck in, the only way he should be deleted is if he comes into the tree being scored. This is the way I have always done it in UKC and I know this is exactly how it is in PKC. Why would a dog get deleted for quiting a track and coming back into you???? Why would the dog not get minused for the 8 catching him?? It is his responsibility to keep the time off is he is going to take a seperate track, if not he is subject to minus please explain the reasononing behind your thinking Thanks Jeremiah Glaze

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
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quote:

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Originally posted by brian gilley
This is the stupidest BS I have ever heard of, why would you delete a dog that struck a track and went a seperate direction (split) and could not keep the time off or came back into you, I have never heard of this before now. He is subject to minus or plus he is struck in, the only way he should be deleted is if he comes into the tree being scored. This is the way I have always done it in UKC and I know this is exactly how it is in PKC. Why would a dog get deleted for quiting a track and coming back into you???? Why would the dog not get minused for the 8 catching him?? It is his responsibility to keep the time off is he is going to take a seperate track, if not he is subject to minus please explain the reasononing behind your thinking Thanks Jeremiah Glaze

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

Its is BS but a good one to remember if you was to ever get shutout............

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