Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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James - I think you and I are on the same page, and I beleive Shane is there too. The root cause of the issue we're discussing is the fact that single-registry remains an option. And perhaps I've taken this argument a slightly different direction, but the post was asking for opinions.

In my opinion, single registry needs to be much more strictly enforced, or eliminated, so it doesn't just become the easy option. And I think a cross-breed registration, is nothing more than a means to make more money. I'm sure some people thing that certain clubs are doing something for them and their hounds, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't about the participants... it was about another revenue stream.

According to Webster, a mutt is a "a dog with parents of different breeds." And if we see a mixed dog running around the neighborhood, most of us would call it a mutt. But if we have one in our kennel, we want to call it a "cross". It is what it is, and there's nothing wrong with it, unless you threaten the decades or centuries of other person's work, to refine pedigrees and breeds. And by the way, giving it a fancy name, doesn't change anything... a Labradoodle is a mutt, too!

Again, nothing wrong with making a cross and hunting it, or developing a new breed, just don't pretend it's something else. And... when you decide to take on that effort and risk, you accept the penalties, like not being able to pedigree it, and compete it against pedigreed dogs! Just that simple... make the choice and live with it.

This is not about whether these dogs are good hounds or whether some are better than even most pedigreed dogs, it's that they're different and therefore shouldn't be treated the same. I can argue all day that I'm just as good a waiter as any woman, but that doesn't mean I should be allowed to "waitress" at Hooters. I'm different, and that position wasn't intended for me...

The above is obviously not a desire of mine (please trust me!) and it does seem ridiculous to some, but so does this argument, from my perspective. You can't choose to play by a different set of rules, and then ask to have the rules changed.

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Here I think you all are missing the entire point of the Introduction of Fresh Blood to a breed ... This is the intended concept of a period of "Open Registration"

But is it being Properly imposed " NO " and I don't believe the Breed Associations know how it is to Work in favor of a Breed ..

Its not supposed to be "Well it Looks like a Walker and Hunts and Trees as a Walker" this isn't the intent .. Cross breedings is along Process continuous breedings to include new blood but to also Wash it back to the Original Breed ..

But included in the Concept was the Registration of these Crosses as a means to Track their Lineage with well documented breedings as their washed back to pure .. Thus the 3 generations and the become "PR" ..

And there Performance as a Cross must be Documented as well .. "In the Field against the Best"


Only the Breed associations are to Blame to this matter !! They just don't understand the Concept and how it works to Improve a breed ..

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Guys i believe if you breed a UKC registered dog(any of the 6 hound groups) to a UKC registered dog(any of the 6 hound groups) you are not getting a "Mutt". You are getting a dog with known parentage and the best of both breeds. I'm not asking someone who loves their purebreds to own, breed, or hunt cross-breds. I'm just saying let's have a avenue for the people who want crossbreds a way to hunt and register our dogs for what they really are instead of single registering.

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I think you are correct.This is what I believe the problem is-people trying to misrepresent the intent.Selfish what I think is best and what I wants.Control....not pay your bills but control your life.Assoc are run buy people..Hitler was a purest.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Here I think you all are missing the entire point of the Introduction of Fresh Blood to a breed ... This is the intended concept of a period of "Open Registration"

But is it being Properly imposed " NO " and I don't believe the Breed Associations know how it is to Work in favor of a Breed ..

Its not supposed to be "Well it Looks like a Walker and Hunts and Trees as a Walker" this isn't the intent .. Cross breedings is along Process continuous breedings to include new blood but to also Wash it back to the Original Breed ..

But included in the Concept was the Registration of these Crosses as a means to Track their Lineage with well documented breedings as their washed back to pure .. Thus the 3 generations and the become "PR" ..

And there Performance as a Cross must be Documented as well .. "In the Field against the Best"


Only the Breed associations are to Blame to this matter !! They just don't understand the Concept and how it works to Improve a breed ..

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It is my opinion that registering cross breeds makes perfect sense, only if single registration is closed. It provides a means to prove lineage, as the cross must be made between two registered pure bred dogs, and allows breeders to work toward breeding the hound traits that they desire. This would not be to create a new breed, but only to bring about the traits that they desire, by the breeding of coon hounds to coon hounds. In years past this was a very common practice, as their desire was to produce a hound with the ability and traits they enjoyed. UKC still allows grade hunts, by providing a way to register these dogs,this would allow them to compete , with the same opertunities as their parents, and at the same time keep the pure bred dogs more pure, by not allowing the single registration of cross bred dogs as is happening now.
I you go back in history 20, or 30 yrs, you will find that breeders may have added a few different ingrediants into the recipe of our pure bred dogs. It worked then, and it works now. So why not provide a way to register these dogs instead of having to lie and single register them.

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This thread has become a very interesting philisophical debate, and I hope the breed organizations are reading!

I'm not intellectually capable of disagreeing with Steve's post, but I think this falls into the category of more strict enforcement of what is allowed to be single registered.

But I will reaffirm thst if a mutt is defined as "a dog with parents of different breeds" then yes, breeding two pedigreed dogs (but of different breeds) together is by definition a mutt.

If we start registering "mixed breeds" where does that end? Should we have Walkerbones, Plotticks, Black and Blues??? What will be the point of "registering"? If any cross can be registered, what is the value in being "registered"?

Maybe we should just get rid of all these different breeds, and ask AKC, UKC, PKC and NKC to simply register and pedigree everything as a "coon dog", because that is what you guys are talking about.

You can read a vast amount of threads on this very board with folks complaining about the results of recessive genes and traits, exisiting in the current breeds, and now we're just supposed to turn that gene pool into a cesspool??? Because not everyone out there is as intelligent as Steve and others are on this thread. If you allow crosses to be registered, then prepare for any illogical, irrational cross imagineable, simply becasue somebody can!

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I am not understanding why everyone is placing the blame on the breed associations. THIS IS A PROBLEM STARTED BY THE UKC THAT ENDS UP GETTING HANDLED BY THE BREED ASSOCIATIONS. They are the ones that do not allow cross-breeds to be hunted and titled. That is the only real reason anyone would want to really register cross-breed a hound. It the owner didn't care about titles, then why would they care about registering anything? Maybe I have missed it, but I have noticed that Todd and Paul are always tight-lipped on these discussions.

I do understand the fact that out-crossing is how you improve a line, and there are some that do want to cross-breed to improve what they got, but I would say those are fewer and farther between than the ones that just want to competition hunt and earn titles in the UKC.

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David you are Correct in the fact that it not being handled in the Intent that the Founding fathers of the Breed Assoc. intended to be ..

Lester Nance and the other founding fathers of the Treeing Walker Breed/Assoc. Would Meet Regulary and These guys travled great distances at 35 miles an hour just to get together and Discuss there Love of the Breed .. Letters back and Forth continusly Discussing there Breed.

Would they be Happy Now about the Treeing Walker ??? Who Knows ..

But it was writen in the Breed laws and Standards that an Open Registration would be Required to Refresh the Gene Pool ..

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Mr. Schmidt, would'nt that be something!!! Walkerbones and Plotticks hunting against the Purebreds. If you think about it hard enough having a Cross-Bred breed would help keep your Purebreds more pure.

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I think it is going on now....do you see the ads of ooops and cross dogs now? A coon dog is a coon dog.Not talking about breeding a horse or a malamute.Not crossing greyhounds for a trial dog.It is like traits to like traits.Not a mutt of different or complete unlike purpose dogs.Tree dogs.If you know the outcross of the breed and cross back into it later,then you have a controlability.Much like outcrossing into a lipper to harry...two different linages to now cross back into at a later date.Breed back to these traits.No different crossing out then coming back.If YOU are not going to breed like that why would it matter to YOU or effect YOU.It may create something just as it has in the past to make you rethink as most men have to see it or continually get beat by it and many will never admitt it.

3 generations and it is again called a PR purebred....3 generations.Not 200 yrs ago....3 generations.Single registering is a controlable way to breed in outside traits from a coon dog to coon dog cross.Assoc closes it not UKC.

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NT CH. CH. PR NEON RED FIRM FANNY -(gr.nt.ch grch Hard Rock/ntch snakeden hollow Jane)

NT CH PR COLLINS NEON RED DOC DA QUEENY -grch ntch desperado/queen

NT CH SH CH pr 3D

NTCH PR Rocky Top Neon Red Cayenne-grntch peels burning pepper/dykes tn. red autumn

NTCH pr Mosquito Creek Faith-grntch squeller/mosquito creek red rose


NTCH pr Neon Red Barnyard Hot Tody....grntch harry x grntch toadie

NTCH pr Peels Neon Red Nuclear Pepper


Neon Red Stump...Grntch barnyard horse Harry x Ntch rockytop neon red Cayenne

Neon Red Blood ...grntch barnyard gun

Neon Red Doc Tody...ntch yellow river doc x ntch neon red hot tody

Newby...ntch 3D x Ntch rockytop neon red Cayenne

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This is a Very Interesting Article and Should be Read thru .. It deals with the Australian Shepherd ..

But how does it compared with "Treeing Hounds" .. It deals with Herding, "Born in Instincts" same as Tracking and Treeing which should be a totally Natural Instinct that should be exercised and NOT " Taught or Trained to do " ..

http://www.ashgi.org/articles/breeding_heresy.htm

Maybe you wouldn't believe it but 20% of the Hounds in this video are under 14 months old and Had never seen a Coon before or Treeded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilg...DnWFT8gsWeoW1cA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVi_...DnWFT8gsWeoW1cA

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tree dog to tree dog only. no of the wolf hound to coon hound junk. there can be ways to set breeding standards.

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Thanks Steve... that was an interesting read!

But now, let me ask you...

The article stated, "If a breed is numerous, descends from a large number of founders, and is not subject to much inbreeding, sufficient genetic diversity may exist to keep the population healthy."

Does that not describe virtually all the coonhound breeds, except maybe Leopard? With all the claims of breedings to "ole shep" and the like, can we not assume that there are a large number of founders in each of the coonhound breeds? And with so many saying that too many breed to the "flavor of the year", can we also not assume that there's not a ton of inbreeding going on?

And so... maybe someone doesn't like the particular "pure bred" Walker they have in the kennel, or the neighbors "pure bred" Redbone, but that doesn't mean that those two breeds are unhealthy and we therefore need to breed them together. Maybe they just need to find a better Walker or Redbone?!?

In fact many on this very thread have argued that undocumented out-crosses (between breeds) has occured, so I'm not convinced that we have an unhealthy gene pool becasue of the lack of out-crosses, but I could be convinced that we see a lot of undesireable recessive traits pop to the surface from time to time, because of outcrosses.

So to get back to the original question... should UKC register out-crosses and let them compete? I still say NO!

In fact I'm now more convinced that what we need to do is to perfrom more selective breeding of the appropriate pure bred to pure bred of the same breed, to build on centuries of refinement in an effort to have more repeatable and predictable results.

Joe Newlin still hasn't convinced me that line-breeding is the only way to go, but total breed out-crosses, seems like a genetic, russian-roulette.

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Take this Pup here King KONG .. Grand Son to Wondo River Kong Treeing walker ..

Saltlick's KONG (25% Gascone Saintongeois, 43.75% Treeing Walker, 6.25% English Coonhound, 4.69% Bluetick Coonhound, 20.31% Bloodhound)

His Breeding is Very Diverse in his Breeding but He shows and hunts as a Treeing Walker ..

I now need to Breed him to a Pure Treeing Walker and the Pups from this Cross would be the 1st Generation.

And would be 71.88 % Treeing walker, the littler is raised out and Selection is made for the next breeding and Bred to another Pure Treeing walker..

Pups from this Cross 2nd Generation will be 85.94% Treeing Walker ..

Next pup is selected and Bred again to a Pure Treeing Walker producing the 3rd generation and being 92.97% Treeing walker ..

All of this is a Labor of Love with a Huge devotion of Time and Money ..

And why would you devote all this effort with out using the Very Best of the Best Hounds walking the face of the Earth !!

A few World Hunts ago .. Big "D" won the Hunt !! But was he trully the Best Hound in the Cast "NO" Sheltons Hammer was and at 9-1/2 years old stomped the Heck out of a lot of younger hounds Cast after Cast ..

Well guess who everyone went running to breed .. Big "D" and only because of the "Title"

I went and Bred to Sheltons Hammer but I actualy hunted with him and my bitch together .. 800 mile round trip ..

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Take this Pup here King KONG .. Grand Son to Wondo River Kong Treeing walker ..

Saltlick's KONG (25% Gascone Saintongeois, 43.75% Treeing Walker, 6.25% English Coonhound, 4.69% Bluetick Coonhound, 20.31% Bloodhound)

His Breeding is Very Diverse in his Breeding but He shows and hunts as a Treeing Walker ..

I now need to Breed him to a Pure Treeing Walker and the Pups from this Cross would be the 1st Generation.

And would be 71.88 % Treeing walker, the littler is raised out and Selection is made for the next breeding and Bred to another Pure Treeing walker..

Pups from this Cross 2nd Generation will be 85.94% Treeing Walker ..

Next pup is selected and Bred again to a Pure Treeing Walker producing the 3rd generation and being 92.97% Treeing walker ..

The above listed is the problem. These dogs should either be registered for what they are ( crossbred, mutt, whatever ). In no way should they be registered as a Treeing Walker at 71.88%!???....JMO...No offense to the breeder, simply speaking about the process. Again, JMO.....Jim Harper

.

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Dave Who's going to Watch over your Quote
" In fact I'm now more convinced that what we need to do is to perform more selective breeding of the appropriate pure bred to pure bred of the same breed, to build on centuries of refinement in an effort to have more repeatable and predictable results. "

Unless there are More Testing of hounds before Mating ..

Its like the Performance Program is this good or bad for the Breeds ??

All it does is promotes more breedings so a person has a Higher " Chance " of receiving Money .. The more puppies you produce the higher the %s of winning .

The Number of Hunt wins does not seem to be Increasing the Quality of the Hounds produced .


Is the Bluetick Breed Stuck in a Box ??? Do they Need " Something added to increase there Performance " ???

So what have they done They Shut down any possible way to Introduce "Something that Mite Help"

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I was gonna mention the outcross then back in for 3a generations being pure, but most cant handle the fact.

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quote:

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Originally posted by pigman816

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It's not the "might help" that scares me, it's the many, many "might hurt" traits that will come out of pandora's box. Even pure bred to pure bred breedings are leading to surprise recessive traits, that unfortunately are now becoming less recessive.

Like: chop mouth on track, high pitched (or lap-dog type) voices, natural shyness, and jealousy, etc.

Imagine the number of genetic combinations and variations, when we further proliferate cross-breeding through this type of initiative.

Sure some of it may be exactly what we're looking for, but it brings a whole lot of other statistical anomolies with it. And again, it won't always be well managed by those as educated as Steve.

So yes, my approach will take some management and governing, but with less dire consequences than unmanaged out-crosses. Because, trust me... some knucklehead will try to breed a Blue dog to a Red dog, because they thought it would produce purple puppies!

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You mean it wont?? That was first cross i had planned.

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Hey guys, y'all better hope i don't win the Power Ball Lottery tonight. Because if i do, i'm gonna buy my own KC and no Pure Breds will be allowed to hunt. HaHa

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quote:

---

Originally posted by tylerman
I think you are correct.This is what I believe the problem is-people trying to misrepresent the intent.Selfish what I think is best and what I wants.Control....not pay your bills but control your life.Assoc are run buy people..Hitler was a purest.

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Some of you guys are forgetting about some single reg. mutts that won some world hunts , 2006 The Quick female ,Back in 1984 Hillbilly Mac won a couple ,,Lord what i wouldn't give for a pup out of those two . I like those yellow papered hounds boys ,,

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quote:

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Originally posted by chuck west
Some of you guys are forgetting about some single reg. mutts that won some world hunts , 2006 The Quick female ,Back in 1984 Hillbilly Mac won a couple ,,Lord what i wouldn't give for a pup out of those two . I like those yellow papered hounds boys ,,

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