Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

Thanks Darren,
I have an old male Id like to get 1 more litter out of also....He was bred twice last year and missed both times. I think the red cell might be worth a try.....Thanks again.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

I used Baytril on a sterile rooster that hadn't been fertile in two years and it worked .... If you got a dog that isn't very fertile I'd used it in a hearbeat.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
I used Baytril on a sterile rooster that hadn't been fertile in two years and it worked .... If you got a dog that isn't very fertile I'd used it in a hearbeat.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Baytril can help if there is an infection or illness but would'nt do anything to enhance a helthy dogs fertility.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: soddy daisy,tennessee
Posts: 448

if i may i would like to touch on this subject for a minute. on cumberland mtn., just outside crossville,tennessee, is a absolutely, dedicated breeder. the man knows more about breeding dogs than anyone ive ever seen or talked with. he has lived what he has preached for over 30 years. his name is robert kemmer and the breed he has improved/perfected is the mtn.cur. seeing different traits in the old original mtn curs that he was using and needing to keep and improve on those, he started a program of in-breeding. now over 30 years later he has some of the most sought after tree-dogs, bear dogs, hog dogs and coyote dogs plus lion dogs in this country. he has shipped dogs and pups all over this country and others. the dogs we are talking about are now known as the KEMMER STOCK MTN. CURS. robert has proven over and over that when done the right way you only improve your breed/bloodline. everytime you make an out-cross you weaken your blood-line. to further prove this point, look at what timothy ball and others involved in the stylish bloodlines of the walker dogs are and have been doing. they took hickory nut stylish harry and started line-breeding to selective females and line-bred those offspring back to other dogs of same and similar bloodlines. look at what they have now. 3,4 and 5 generation all grand pedigrees. dogs that reproduce better each generation than the previous one. look at all th 1000.00 dollar pups and 20,000 dollar stud dogs they are producing. whether we like it or not, the proof is in the dogs they have produced and are still producing. it works. im not a walker dog man so im not biased when it comes to the stylish line. im just being honest and wishing i has bough some of the pups years ago. i have been involved with robert kemmer and his stock of dogs for about 15 years now. there are 1000's of his dogs out there. they are for real. just have an open mind and try one. whether its a walker, bluedog, english or any other hound or even a keemer stock mtn. cur. you might like what you find.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: soddy daisy,tennessee
Posts: 448

btt

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

those 1000 dollar pups and 20,000 dollar stud dogs are priced that way because of the promotion that these con men put behind them, those pups and dogs aren't any better than old Joe Bloes down the road that's near you now, don't mix promoters like Tim Ball up with breeders or hunters like Frank Giddings.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Khester , anyone can point at others and say look what they have done .... what is your personal experience with inbreeding dogs ?

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: soddy daisy,tennessee
Posts: 448

justin,
my personal experience is with the kemmer stock mt curs. i have been breeding, raising training and pleasureand comp. hunting them since 1991. until then i knew absolutely nothing about this line of dogs and even less about breeding. even though i was skeptical at first, i followed advice from robert kemmer and tried things he didnt think i should when it came to breeding. after all these years i have to admitt my best successes came when i followed the good/sound advice given to me by mr. kemmer. i wasnt trying to compare timoth ball to anyone. i agree he is some more ad writter/ promoter. i can remember ads he placed in cooner years ago pertaining to harry. i thought back then that he was full of bull. i recently went back and read some of his predictions and boastings. i have to admitt that alot of what he said would happen has. i do not own nor have i ever owned a walker dog. i have never met nor spoken with mr. ball. i was just saying that the bloodline they are promoting has been strengthened by the use of selective lie-breeding. and i know from years of personal experience that the kemmer stock mt curs are better off because a man went where others said he shouldnt and even though he doesnt get the credit i feel he deserves, his bloodline has left its mark on the treedog/hunting dog world.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Justin,

Man, you are sure welcome to your opinion. Thank God we live in a country where your right to express that opinion is well guarded.

I personally beleive in inbreeding....we call it line breeding to make ourselves feel better about what we as humans consider morally "wrong".

Simple fact is that I have "hung my hat" on line breeding. It works for me, the proof lives in my kennel that half brother-half sister crosses work. I know of a father daughter cross off a uncle neice cross that is absolutley outstanding....and she is not the only pup in the litter that is that way.

Joker and his littermates are line bred, the single highest $$ winning litter in PKC history.

I know your thoughts and feelings on inbreeding and line breeding. While I respect your thoughts, the simple fact is that those folks that have been breeding much of anything more than an occaisional litter will tell you that once you that eventually you will want to "lock in" the traits that you were breeding for. And the only way you can do that is to inbreed.

Stand up for what you believe man....but I believe that there is lots of proof, but you have to look for it. Selection is the key, it matters not if you are inbreeding, line breeding, or outcrossing. If you don't do your homework, and are just breeding two individuals, its a crap shoot.....

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 2382

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
those 1000 dollar pups and 20,000 dollar stud dogs are priced that way because of the promotion that these con men put behind them, those pups and dogs aren't any better than old Joe Bloes down the road that's near you now, don't mix promoters like Tim Ball up with breeders or hunters like Frank Giddings.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joe , I have not yet expressed my thoughts on inbreeding ... but I have formed my own ideas about it .

I bred an Airedale/Walker litter .... gave a pair away . That bro/sister pair bred each other . A son from that bred his mother and from that litter the pups were normal acting , healthy and just as sorry as the originals....it that inbreeding or what ,lol.

The dog I'm hunting now is from cousins who are tighter than just cousins .. I bred him back to his mother ... don't know about those pups yet but they are coon crazy at four months old.

I don't care how anyone breeds .. and I love to hear folks share their experiences .. but .. repeating info from websites , books and mags that beef cattle or yorkie breeders came up with makes me wanna puke .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

My ideas based on what I've learned in the real world is that you are just kicking dirt until you get your hands on a dog that has the genetic makeup to be both a good hunting dog and reproducer .... after that

1. Have the sense to know what you got ... that may be the hardest part.

2. Chunk just about everything else into traffic and concentrate on that one great dog .. cuz you aint got two of them.

3. No ... none ... zero .. breeding methods apply to every dog out there and you can't know ahead of time what is gonna work for the specific dog that you have.

4. Cowboy up and start breeding the way your GUT tells you to ... don't do something that doesn't make sense to YOU .. if you do then you won't know if it worked or not cuz you didn't understand it in the first place.

5. If you find yourself seeking council about breeding on a daily basis and don't feel like you have a clue .... sell that dog to someone who does.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Justin,

That is so twisted up I had to draw a map to figure out who begat who!

The Airdale/Walker cross is the perfect example for what I was talking about. Sure, they were inbred, and you know what...it sounds like they were healthy, and productivley sound (they kept breeding each other and producing pups!), but they simply were "sorry".

Breeding ole so and so...to ready and willing just becuase they are related is NOT the answer. Selection is the single most important choice in breeding, not bloodlines. Tell you what, that is so important I am going to type it again. SELELECTION IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT CHOICE IN BREEDING, NOT BLOODLINES.

Now, having said that (twice) the proven formula for getting results consistently is to select from related animals. I have a kennel full of "Clover" bred dogs. 24 dogs live at my house, and every one of them is related, most of them more than one direction....you know...uncle dad...cousin mom kind of thing. I know that as long as I continue to breed, the pups become more consistant. I don't get the "wild' fluctuations in voice, color, and yes...even ability.

I am not spouting from a book or web site....I am living it right here, right now. My initial knowledge is "book learned" and I am practicing some of the very principles spelled out in this post. The only real difference between what has been written and what is being practiced both here and at the Kemmer kennel....in a word....

SELECTION.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joe , selection is key .. but the knack for being able to select the good ones is born into you .. if not , you can't learn it.

As important as selection is .... finding and recognizing a PREPOTENT sire/dam is even more important . You absolutely must have the dog flesh in the brood pen or you won't get anywhere.

Another theory that I'm certain is right ,lol ... is that those great dogs and producers have more active genes that are alive in their body than a normal dog ... and that is why inbreeding generation after generation will hurt you.

When you inbreed , you narrow the active gene pool and reduce the actual dog power that exists...it's like two 50 lb dogs can be similiar but they have different atomic weights that represent horsepower and goodness.

I want a 50 lb dog with an atomic weight that is off the charts.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Joe , selection is key .. but the knack for being able to select the good ones is born into you .. if not , you can't learn it.

As important as selection is .... finding and recognizing a PREPOTENT sire/dam is even more important . You absolutely must have the dog flesh in the brood pen or you won't get anywhere.

Another theory that I'm certain is right ,lol ... is that those great dogs and producers have more active genes that are alive in their body than a normal dog ... and that is why inbreeding generation after generation will hurt you.

When you inbreed , you narrow the active gene pool and reduce the actual dog power that exists...it's like two 50 lb dogs can be similiar but they have different atomic weights that represent horsepower and goodness.

I want a 50 lb dog with an atomic weight that is off the charts.

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What....24 dogs isn't enough "dog flesh in the brood pen"?

Selection starts with recognizing and objectivley evaluating every dog in your breeding program....and some that are not in your breeding program.... Being blind to what you have, and not being honest enough with yourself to say...we'll I can improve this or that....or maybe even...ain't gonna breed that one any more because of what you know is right.

I blame the futurity like programs for more breeding mistakes. "I'm gonna breed to ole super duper because his pups win alot"....and "I got on the message board and asked what my female would cross good on...and I have three pups sold already."

I labor over breeding decisions. I have scoured the country for females that have proven that they reproduce in thier own likeness, and I am very critical of my breeding stock.

Not sure about atomic weight.....but I know that you have to be in it for the "long haul" if you are really trying to make a difference. Outcrossing is a gamble in my mind, no matter how you cut it. Serious breeders will tell you that after line breeding for YEARS, an outcross can set them back a long ways....and nearly always does just that.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joe , many breeders get so kennel blind over the years that even an outcross that works looks like junk to them .

Voyd asked how you could improve a linebred gene pool after you get as far as you can go with what you have ..... I'd say you breed to a phenominal producer of a similiar strain that has something your dogs lack and try to gain a trait of improve weak traits in your line every time you come to a bottleneck.

Inbreeding done by harsh cullers and hunters is successful some times because you are breeding similiar dogs together .... you can fill in the blanks with any type of breeding if you do the rest and still succeed.

When livestock geneticists invent a cow that has beef like an Angus , gives milk like a Holstein and bucks like Bodacious then I will listen to them ....until then , what can they teach coonhound breeders ?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joe , a good test for scientific breeding or linbreeding would be to ask a breeder if they can sell me a pup and tell me at weaning age what kind of dog that pup will be ....mouth , brains , track speed , accurate ,etc ...

Color genetics and the like that have been mapped out can be predicted accurately .. so we know they got that down .

If inbreeding and such worked as well as people think for coonhounds then you would know what you will have before it's born .

If you have to wait and see ... and I have to wait and see , then what makes one wait and see method better than the other ?

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

Justin, it isn't difficult to build a family through linebreeding however you loose the oppertunity to progress in ability at the same rate as the rest of the breed after the third generation of your breeding unless you use a family of dogs that equals or excells your family of dogs and then you should only use the best that both have to offer to incorperate back into your desired family. this my humble and uninformed opion.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
[B]Joe , a good test for scientific breeding or linbreeding would be to ask a breeder if they can sell me a pup and tell me at weaning age what kind of dog that pup will be ....mouth , brains , track speed , accurate ,etc ...

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
Posts: 2937

I was thinking of making this one inbred cross because my old dog is 10yrs old.He has produced some good hounds with very limited breeding because of sterility issues.I have 2 males out of GrNtChGrChPR Southern Blue Frostbite and Hornet.I have a littermate sister to Frosty that will be bred to one of these males if they make the cut.I also have a female out of Hornet that would also be bred to one of these males(half brother&sister).This is the way I am going to keep this old blood up close.Frosty and her sister are from a complete outcross so I am going to try to breed close and cull harshly.I also have access to a littermate NtCh Brother to Frosty as well.He may even fit into the mix before long!!!
Darren
HOME OF:
GrNtChGrChPR Southern Blue Moonshine
GrNtChGrChPR Southern Blue Frostbite
NtChPR Southern Blue Maggie
Ch PR Southern Blue Dinah-Mite
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PR Southern Blue Razor
HOUNDS THAT CAME FROM SOUTHERN BLUETICK KENNELS
NtChPR Moonshine's Southern Blue Iceman
Ch PR Southern Blue Jet
PR Southern Blue Tracker(1st&2nd place wins)
PR Southern Blue Drifter(2-1st place wins)
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NtChPR Southern Blue Hammer
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HOME OF:
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue S&H’s Goose (Sparks&Hollis)
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Cotton
GrNtCh PR Mose's Pink Floyd ( Co-Owned with Scott V)
Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
ChNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Dolly
ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
PR Southern Blue Cobb (NtChCh Uchtmans Andy x Ratliffs Blue Tell)
PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
(REST IN PEACE)
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Moonshine
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Frostbite
NtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Queen
NtChGrCh PR Blue Eyes Blue Jessie
NtCh PR Southern Frost Hollow Blue Bell(BB)
NtCh PR Southern Blue Hammer
NtCh PR Hollis' Southern Blue Maggie
NtCh PR Hollis' Bull Mtn. Pearl
GrCh PR Southern Blue Jet
PR Southern Blue Sam
PR Southern Blue Rattler
GrChGrNtCh PR Lovell’s Smokey River Blue Ann

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Justin, it isn't difficult to build a family through linebreeding however you loose the oppertunity to progress in ability at the same rate as the rest of the breed after the third generation of your breeding unless you use a family of dogs that equals or excells your family of dogs and then you should only use the best that both have to offer to incorperate back into your desired family. this my humble and uninformed opion.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
I think Dave Dean can do this on at least 7 out 10 of his pups.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Voyd , I'd agree with that .. but also ask if that's a bad thing if you really like what you're hunting and don't need any improvement .

Or better worded .. just how good can a dog get ? How much better are coondog greats today than the greats of yesteryear?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Rockmart Ga.
Posts: 8685

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Justin if you aren't trying to improve what you have then you are going backwards, you can't duplicate any dog, dogs are far better today, no comparison.

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In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
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