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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

Re: JMO

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
There is no such thing as a natural born coondog,,if there was we would have no need for a trainer. Dogs are born with natural ability but they can not hone that ability standing in a kennel.. Early starters ==early maturity.
A pup that is born with natural abilty,the earlier he reaches maturity the earlier he starts. I suspect that there is a far greater number of natural born early starters that never get a chance to prove it.. then the ones that do..And also a lot of them never get a chance to reach thier full ability due to over training or over correcting...

Give the pup that is born with the natural ability his best chance to mature at his own rate and then do not over train or over correct and there will be a lot more early starting naturals..

A pup born with natural ability can not stand in a kennel until it is mature and go to the woods and be a coondog..wont work !!!!

Good Post Guys !!

I think Dave Dean would disagree with that statement Larry. He claims that the pups from Hammer 2 x Penny were treeing when they hit the ground. lol

I'm telling you right now, the age at which a dog starts has zero effect on it's ability to be a big hunt winner with the exception of SS.
It's great if they do start young and it's fun, but it don't mean anything on the big stage as they mature.

The other thing I don't understand are all these people talking about correcting pups. If you raise them right and spend time with them at an early age instead of just throwing them into a kennel leaving them there until they are 6 months old, you will have a better connection with that pup and mutual understanding of what is expected. I'd say this is the biggest issue with raising pups, is the lack of time spent with them covering the basics as they are growing up.

I don't remember having to do much correcting on a well bred pup that was raised right. I just hunted them by themselves once they started running and treeing and let them develop naturally into the dog they are supposed to be. Everytime you try to train something into a dog it doesn't have naturally, it takes away from your breeding program and many times creates behavioral issues. For example, kicking or hitting your dog with a leash to get it to go hunting on the turnout, creates handling issues that then ends up being a shock collar issue compounded by more behavioral problems. If a pup don't have what you want, get rid of it and find one that does. Stop wasting your time trying to make that pup into something its not going to be.

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Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
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Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
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Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
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CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

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02-20-2016 07:24 AM

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mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Re: Re: JMO

quote:
Originally posted by ahallada
I think Dave Dean would disagree with that statement Larry. He claims that the pups from Hammer 2 x Penny were treeing when they hit the ground. lol

I'm telling you right now, the age at which a dog starts has zero effect on it's ability to be a big hunt winner with the exception of SS.
It's great if they do start young and it's fun, but it don't mean anything on the big stage as they mature.

The other thing I don't understand are all these people talking about correcting pups. If you raise them right and spend time with them at an early age instead of just throwing them into a kennel leaving them there until they are 6 months old, you will have a better connection with that pup and mutual understanding of what is expected. I'd say this is the biggest issue with raising pups, is the lack of time spent with them covering the basics as they are growing up.

I don't remember having to do much correcting on a well bred pup that was raised right. I just hunted them by themselves once they started running and treeing and let them develop naturally into the dog they are supposed to be. Everytime you try to train something into a dog it doesn't have naturally, it takes away from your breeding program and many times creates behavioral issues. For example, kicking or hitting your dog with a leash to get it to go hunting on the turnout, creates handling issues that then ends up being a shock collar issue compounded by more behavioral problems. If a pup don't have what you want, get rid of it and find one that does. Stop wasting your time trying to make that pup into something its not going to be.

that SS is the biggest reason you got these guys out there training puppy's to tree coon before they take them to the woods to start
They put a price tag on a early starter now how many naturals you think was ruined with cage coon shoved in their face day after day just because getting that pup started is a chance for a pay check ?

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favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

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02-20-2016 12:31 PM

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Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

few things

I would not call myself a pup trainer or even a good handler. but thru almost 40years of observing coonhounds there are a few things I am certain of.

1.You can't make a dog want to hunt.
2.Dogs have much better noses than humans.
3.Every dog has it's limits as to how much "correcting" they will take.
4.some dogs are way better off being owned by someone else.
5.Dogs learn things 5 ways , by watching, by smelling, by hearing, by feeling and thru negative outcomes. The first 4 are way more important than the last
6. a real good natural dog will teach you more than you teach it.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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02-20-2016 01:59 PM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

Re: few things

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I would not call myself a pup trainer or even a good handler. but thru almost 40years of observing coonhounds there are a few things I am certain of.

1.You can't make a dog want to hunt.
2.Dogs have much better noses than humans.
3.Every dog has it's limits as to how much "correcting" they will take.
4.some dogs are way better off being owned by someone else.
5.Dogs learn things 5 ways , by watching, by smelling, by hearing, by feeling and thru negative outcomes. The first 4 are way more important than the last
6. a real good natural dog will teach you more than you teach it.

Haha there is a lot of truth to #4 and #6 Kelly. I like that!

As far as SS in this breed , it really can't be that important because there were only 2 Red dogs at SS last fall and both have my name on them. Personally I'd throw those caged coon techniques out the door unless you plan on hunting in the caged coon championships. It ruins more dogs than it does good.

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02-20-2016 03:31 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

I was talking other breeds Allen 15 years ago that's all the local guys wanted three circle trees would get you in the money lol
As for the cage coons use only one reason in my opion it is used attempt to teach what may have not got bred in a natural early starter jmo

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02-20-2016 03:57 PM

Wade Kuhns
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Pa
Posts: 1495

Some pretty impressive lists of favorites on here,of all the finished ,favorite ,grandnites everybody has past and present which ones started the most natural from 8 week old pups that you guys have raised? I'm talking about picking a pup out of a litter and being the sole owner start to Grntch and doing it the most natural.Alot of my favorites have some of you guy's favorites in their pedigrees.

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02-20-2016 10:11 PM

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Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Short list

Here's my list of naturals, all of these ran and treed their first or second night in the woods.

GrniteCh Sawblade Fiddle... 4 months old 1st coon
Nite Ch Sawblade Red Reckon.... 7 months old 1st coon
NiteCh High Water June... 7 months old 1st coon ,Ryan Briggs
Sawblade Ribbon ....7months old ,1st coon

Not all made GrandNiteh these are the ones I kept as pups or know for sure . The rest of the dogs you would have to ask the owners how quick they started. I believe they all started pretty young with only a few exceptions.

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02-20-2016 10:36 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Moonlight Kate 6 months on a evening walk back behind the barn
Beaver creek blaze 13 months 2nd drop 1st night
Moonlight Katie 6 months first drop
Dirty dan first night 3rd drop

Took a young female on her first walk today while shed hunting she started barking over a ridge 150 yards away walked over she was on a den tree with a coon looking out nothing impressive but she has never seen a coon yet
I learned a lot about her Today 👍

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02-20-2016 11:37 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Re: Naturals

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
First off this is in no means ment in a negitive way toward any person or dog/line some like to twist things
Some are taking what I said on another thread totally out of context
A Natural is one that can find track and tree game with out human help
That is what I want in a coon hound pup 7 to 14 months old some times the age I start taking them is desided by time of year they become old enuff to go spring /fall
I want to see as much natural ability as I can so I choose not to interfere with Mother Nature by trying to speed the processe with drags and caged coon while waiting for that pup to get some age you are now teaching/training the pup to track and tree game
My first coondog pre teens was a mutt no hound in him but treed me a lot of coon I trained him the same as you would teach a dog to shake sit fetch and so on what are the chances he would reproduce a natural born coon dog not good but he could reproduce a pup I could train to tree coon probably

I'm just not in this sport to train coon dogs I'm in it to hunt coon dogs that's me and how I feel about it and jmo do it how you want and what works for you maybe I'm totally wrong
Breeding for Natural instinct or fast learners I feel there is a differents

From a few Pms this is getting twisted to saying something it does not say this is a good post don't try and twist it in to what it isn't
natural early starter has nothing to do with winning hunts
But every thing to some one breeding for a natural early starter

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02-21-2016 05:16 AM

sox12
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1114

This is a great thread hope it keeps going in the right direction

George

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02-21-2016 11:20 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

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Location: Marion, Indiana
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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
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(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
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Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
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02-24-2016 12:11 AM

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A.Berresford
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 182

I'm not sure what a natural really is. I have seen natural tree dogs that would lock down on a tree if you just shook a branch. I have seen pups that would just naturally drive a track no matter what it was. I think everything a coondog does is in its blood. I think this comes out at different times depending on the dog. Sometimes it takes a certain situation to bring this out. I have seen a dog that couldn't put it together and go to another person and the light bulb just comes on for that pup. There is so many different circumstances and ways to bring what is in their blood out of a pup I think.

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Moonlight Game Over (Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw G Man x Gr. Nt.Ch. Gold Ch. Laytons Classy Cali)

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02-24-2016 12:28 AM

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mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.Berresford
[B]I'm not sure what a natural really is. I have seen natural tree dogs that would lock down on a tree if you just shook a branch. I have seen pups that would just naturally drive a track no matter what it was.

Artie You had walkers they do that naturally that is where correction comes in after they start just saying 😁

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02-24-2016 06:31 PM

A.Berresford
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 182

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.Berresford
[B]I'm not sure what a natural really is. I have seen natural tree dogs that would lock down on a tree if you just shook a branch. I have seen pups that would just naturally drive a track no matter what it was.

Artie You had walkers they do that naturally that is where correction comes in after they start just saying 😁

Lol I never made the connection. Maybe I should just send my pups out to be trained unless they are naturals.... I'm so confused

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02-24-2016 07:05 PM

Wade Kuhns
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Pa
Posts: 1495

One thing is for sure fellas,whether you call it a natural or man made starter,If a pup isn't born with the traits to make a finished dog that you like,it will never come out naturally or with any amount of training.I'll take a pup with a couple of over exaggerated traits like tree and hunt drive any day.Another way of saying it is,you can always take a little off of a dog but no man on earth is going to put it in them if it isn't there in the first place.A good dog can make an idiot look like a good trainer,a good trainer can make a good dog ,great.

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02-25-2016 05:08 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

quote:
Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
One thing is for sure fellas,whether you call it a natural or man made starter,If a pup isn't born with the traits to make a finished dog that you like,it will never come out naturally or with any amount of training.

Agree totally wade once a dog starts it is only going to be as good as its natural ability will let it be they will improve every drop for the rest of there life you won't teach a dog to hunt harder track faster or locate faster they got it or they don't It don't matter if I train it to start or let it start naturally

But I could teach a collie mix to start doing it or a full blooded hound but the only way to know if your getting natural early starter is letting it start naturally is all I'm saying and its jmo and a few others if one is in in a very thin coon area I can see giving them a few easier coon tracks to find and tree

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02-25-2016 05:57 PM

Pastor Mike
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Radford, Virginia
Posts: 2748

We used to go up to Tom's in the spring of the year to do a little hunting and to just watch and learn from Tom on pup training. He used to say to me all the time, "Mike, you can't make a dog do something that it doesn't want to do." He was referring to a pup getting going. It took me awhile and some experience to know that he was right.

Tom had a special way about him that he could bring out of a pup what was bred in there. He also knew the difference when a dog was doing it from natural instinct vs just copying the other dogs.....and those doing that ended up in the ditch, even if they looked like a million bucks in training. Sure wish Tom could communicate. His experience and knowledge would sure be helpful.

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NTCH CH Soggy Bottom The Bull Dawg
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GRNTCH GRCH Soggy Bottom T-Top Haze HTX (Former#1 Reproducer)
CH Soggy Bottom T-Top Stella
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Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

I've definitely had zero luck making one go, and it's close to the top of what I hate the most, a great deal of that is my personal preference but also the fact I unfortunately don't have a coon waiting behind every bush. So I agree, that's one of things that cannot be put into a dog. Now I know a couple things that help, but usually those tricks can develop habits that could be problems later.

So, I "cheat" some with youngins by using feeders placed at different distances from the drop to help make sure we catch a hot track occasionally, otherwise I'm struggling later to undo some bad habits.

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02-25-2016 06:27 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
We used to go up to Tom's in the spring of the year to do a little hunting and to just watch and learn from Tom on pup training. He used to say to me all the time, "Mike, you can't make a dog do something that it doesn't want to do." He was referring to a pup getting going. It took me awhile and some experience to know that he was right.

Tom had a special way about him that he could bring out of a pup what was bred in there. He also knew the difference when a dog was doing it from natural instinct vs just copying the other dogs.....and those doing that ended up in the ditch, even if they looked like a million bucks in training. Sure wish Tom could communicate. His experience and knowledge would sure be helpful.

That is one of the most important points I have tried to make to people in this breed.....how and why a dog starts treeing is much more important than just getting it to tree by any means neccesary!
Its great to see pups treeing at a young age...but if they are doing it for the wrong reasons....like because the rest of the pack is putting peer pressure on them...or just treeing because they can see it hanging a few feet above them in the daylight, that is not going to help them in a competition hunt. In fact...too much of the first one creates dogs who always want to pack and will me too dogs in a hunt and tree whether they can smell a coon or not.
I know some disagree and most of those are people who charge others to get their pups treeing, or those who are close friends of them.
I dont have anything against all the people who have these types of operations...my only concern is too much of it for too long and the fact that they do these excersizes daily and in packs. I think by the time those pups leave it has become a habit that most people will not be able to break and they will forever be the type of dog that Tom would have said needs to be in a ditch.
I do not and have not practiced this method since learning some hard lessons almost 25 years ago...and because of that nearly every single dog I start and train from a pup has become a solid coon dog and titled out and done its share of winning.i know there are people that hold up examples of those started this way that went on to make a good dog...but their success rate is nowhere near that of someone who starts and trains like I do and thats just a fact. Its about percentages and if you want to raise and train a winning competition dog...you will reduce your odds (even if its bred to be a natural)
By repeatetive training that will allow that pup to form life long bad habits that may or may not be able to be remedied later.
I really wish more people would realize that the most important thing in starting a pup is not to get it treeing as young as possible by any means neccesary. Some of these bad practices are probably eliminating a high percentage of well bred pups from ever becoming real contenders in top level competition and that is a real shame.
We need the highest percentage of the redbones we produce each year to reach that level so the breed is well represented if we want to put this breed back on top. I would strongly urge people to take a long hard look into just exactly how the dogs of all breeds that end up winning at that top level are started and trained...because I think they will see a consistent pattern and it will open a lot of eyes and if people can see through the smoke screen of others who sing a different tune on this...it could make a big difference in the redbone breed.

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02-25-2016 07:00 PM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

naturals

There seem to be a lot of talk about how a person should train a natural. I'm of the opinion that naturals really don't need much training mostly they need a chance. It may be hard for some to accept but some dogs have such natural ability I'm not sure it's possible to ruin one with any form of training that has proved to work at least some times.

A long time ago I had a young dog that seemed to be a natural. One of the very first coon that dog treed we decided we should shake out and let that pup get it. That's the way we did it back then. My buddy climbed up and I waited with a club and the young dog. When the coon hit the ground it was bigger than we expected and more than the young dog could handle. The pup was giving it all it had but needed some help. I got ready with the club and when the pup backed up I swung as hard as I could. At the same time the pup lunged back in and I hit her square across the skull, she hit the ground screaming and ran off. I figured she was about to die and started looking for her. It took about 20 seconds and the coon figured it was time to run and next thing I knew the pup was on it again ,treeing on a small sapling that the coon had climbed. I wouldn't recommend this training method but that pup made GrNiteCh. I couldn't beat the natural ability out of her with a club. Just something to think on. By the way it's a true story and I got witnesses to the entire ordeal. Sawblade dogs got hard heads !!

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02-25-2016 11:40 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Kelly, like you, I have had a few that I could not ruin no matter how hard I tried. What difference does it make if a dog is "trained" or a "natural" if he/she ends up being a super nice dog? And there are a lot of things that a dog can be trained to do. Everyone says that there would be a lot more good dogs if they were just "given the chance". Now y'all make it sound like all that you have to do is turn them loose. Are y'all saying that they can't learn or be trained how to better work a track? Have you never walked into a young dog that stood on his head and sent him on? Have y'all never "stopped" one from backtracking? Have y'all never stopped one from leaving a tree to run the track backwards? Have y'all never hunted one with a good track dog to teach him how to better work a track. Have y'all never "convinced" one to go hunting and not hang around? Do y'all really think that a young dog that learns to tree from backing another dog will remain a "me too" dog the rest of his life and won't eventually start split treeing? Have y'all never seen a dog that was "trained" to be independant?

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02-26-2016 12:13 AM

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mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Kelly, like you, I have had a few that I could not ruin no matter how hard I tried. What difference does it make if a dog is "trained" or a "natural" if he/she ends up being a super nice dog? ((Answered this in the ? Natural and trained is the diff))
And there are a lot of things that a dog can be trained to do.((YES))
Everyone says that there would be a lot more good dogs if they were just "given the chance". Now y'all make it sound like all that you have to do is turn them loose. ((YES))
Are y'all saying that they can't learn or be trained how to better work a track? ((With reps with hunting))
Have you never walked into a young dog that stood on his head and sent him on? ((NO I have not I take a good seat pop open a pbr and wait and hope he learns on his own ))
Have y'all never "stopped" one from backtracking?((NO))
Have y'all never stopped one from leaving a tree to run the track backwards? ((Yes once and trust me he never had the chance to do it again ))
Have y'all never hunted one with a good track dog to teach him how to better work a track.((NOPE))
Have y'all never "convinced" one to go hunting and not hang around?((20 years ago yes))
Do y'all really think that a young dog that learns to tree from backing another dog will remain a "me too" dog the rest of his life and won't eventually start split treeing? ((NO))
Have y'all never seen a dog that was "trained" to be independant?((YES never done it my self ))

Now what's this got to do with natural early starter and one that's trained its job before its started ? If you are breeding for natural early starters ? It's bred in them or it's not

Last edited by mmarshall on 02-26-2016 at 04:40 AM

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02-26-2016 01:00 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Im not sure if you are lumping me in with all the yall's, but if you are you have misunderstood much of what I have said.
I never said you can stop a dog with natural ability from becoming a coon dog.
Let me be the first to say that I am not a trainer who lets a pup get by with slick treeing or treeing off game the first few times it trees because I am afraid it wont tree if I get on it or whip it.
If that dog has natural treeing ability...which it should if i did my homework and chose the right pup...i am going to scold it and switch it good every time it needs correction...including the first few times it trees wrong or off game.
This has never stopped any dog i have worked with from treeing coons later.
The guidelines I use in trainer are pretty simple...
Put them in the right settings to learn
Encourage them when they do what they should be doing
Discourage them when they dont do what I feel they should be doing in the natural course of their time in the woods.
Let me expand on that last one a little.
I never let a dog repeat mistakes....i stop them from the very start!
Because I know that a dog learns by repeatition and to let a dog get by with something for even a few times can lead to a habit that may never be completely broken later. Call it tough love or whatever you want...but I have seen the damage done by allowing bad behavior to become a habit and it takes much less time than most people think.
Now you guys seem to misunderstand some of what I said about a couple things. i say this because Kelly seems to make the point that he has seen bad things happen to young dogs and yet they still went on to overcome it and become a coon dog.
I believe I said that some with enough brains and natural ability are able to do this in spite of the way they may have been started...but many who would have ...had their natural course not been altered...do not!
See, here is my point....a dog with natural ability can have that natural tracking and treeing instinct manipulated in a way by the methods you use to "train" it.
Most pups these days will tree at some point when they are ready. At least thats been my experience with dogs from the Outlaw and Moonlight lines I have been hunting. But that natural path that I try to let come out on its own can be altered by starting them in a pack and getting them to tree with other dogs not because they trail and then tree the coon by scent with their nose...but through peer pressure of other dogs and the excitement of joining in with the pack...an instinct that is millions of years old.
Why do people start pups by running them with other dogs?
Why? Because the other dogs show them what to do.
Im not saying its bad or wrong to run a pup with an old broke solid coon dog at first to get it started....but do it at night...in a natiral setting on wild raccoons. A pup can still smell a lot of the track that way. When you drag a cage on the ground and then pull it up a tree...you do not have a naturally laid track and most dogs wont be able to smell that after a pack of dogs has been all over it so they end up treeing because the other dogs treed. This is bad...this will lead to a dog following other dogs and just doing what they do.
So you say so what...as long as they have a coon its not so bad...right?
Uh...have you drawn out any slick treeing dogs in a competition hunt lately???
This kind of dog will jump right on the tree with that loud hard treeing wood monster and you will get beat by a dog that only trees when it can smell the coon enough to be sure it is there and doesnt feel the pull of those other dogs blowing the top out of that slick tree.
I have seen so many young people ruin good prospects by hunting them with other dogs that are not doing what they should be doing. When you spend too much time working young dogs with other dogs that do all the work better than the young dog...many just play follow the leader...until it becomes a habit.
If you want to have an independent, honest solid coon dog you can win with...most of the time that dog will have to be split off and hunted alone...a lot. I do this as soon as I think the dog can tree its own coon and i do not hunt it with another dog much until it has treed about 10-12 by itself and built up its confidence quite a bit. Then...i will mix it up hunting it with one solid old dog about 30% of the time for several months while continuing to hunt it alone about 70% of the time and thats how it will be until its time for its first nite hunt.
I have seen pups started the right way and then sold or given to people competely go the wrong way by always hunting the dog with 2-3 other dogs during the week that had bad habits or where so much better than the dog that it eventually just gave up and started following the lead dog.
You will seldom win unless your dog does some things first and you will never win top level hunts without an independent first tree dog.
Im not saying its wrong to use a cage coon or release coons or feeders or even a few drags when starting a pup...but remember....do it with no more than one other dog...and preferrably by its self.
Starting a pup should be a very short time period under controlled circumstances...and as soon as that pup has shown it can tree a hot easy coon on its own...you need to let it prove that in the wild...once that happens you should be into the training phase and never work that dog again in the daylight or a pack of dogs again.
Its not rocket science...but some who have never had much luck seem to buy into the stories of others who say they know all the secrets and if you pay them...they can get your pup treeing.
All I can say is it takes more than just a wood monster to win hunts...so if you pay someone to get your young dog treeing...be careful what you wish for because winners tree wild raccoons...in the wild woods...not cage coons in the back yard and there is a distinct difference between the two.

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02-26-2016 01:23 AM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

done all that

Richard, haven't you ever had one that all you had to do was take it hunting and it did the rest. It went out without being encouraged, it struck a track and opened on it because it couldn't help but do it, it started checking trees when it lost the track, it treed on the wood because it smelled where a coon had went up and it kept doing it night after night with only a few minor set backs that work themselves out with more trips to the woods. If you haven't had one like that I hope you get one. They don't come along every day but they are not a myth . I have had people tell me that all they had to do was take a pup hunting and it did the rest. I think many people think they are training a dog and sometimes the dog is doing most the training itself the people just take the credit for it.
A coon dog loves to run a coon and they love to get the prize for dong so. When they make mistakes and don't get the prize they learn to search harder and use their nose and brains. We just think it's all us. It's them doing what their bred to do. I believe a true natural needs nothing more than a real good pat on the head and some praise for doing a job right and a regular trip to the woods. Scold em on off game and give them time to get treed on the ruff tracks. They can pretty much train themselves after that..

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02-26-2016 01:24 AM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Re: done all that

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
Richard, haven't you ever had one that all you had to do was take it hunting and it did the rest. It went out without being encouraged, it struck a track and opened on it because it couldn't help but do it, it started checking trees when it lost the track, it treed on the wood because it smelled where a coon had went up and it kept doing it night after night with only a few minor set backs that work themselves out with more trips to the woods. If you haven't had one like that I hope you get one. They don't come along every day but they are not a myth . I have had people tell me that all they had to do was take a pup hunting and it did the rest. I think many people think they are training a dog and sometimes the dog is doing most the training itself the people just take the credit for it.
A coon dog loves to run a coon and they love to get the prize for dong so. When they make mistakes and don't get the prize they learn to search harder and use their nose and brains. We just think it's all us. It's them doing what their bred to do. I believe a true natural needs nothing more than a real good pat on the head and some praise for doing a job right and a regular trip to the woods. Scold em on off game and give them time to get treed on the ruff tracks. They can pretty much train themselves after that..

They tend to do very well in the breeding pen also

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02-26-2016 01:55 AM

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