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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
So if there is a grinner up the tree instead of a slick the dog is scratched?


You would make the same argument. The dog has not "treed"! I know we've had that one before.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 03:21 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
So barking or not, a dog at the tree is scored as a dog treeing?


The first part (minus strike points) but not the tree part (no tree points awarded to a dog that has not actually barked on this tree). Like I said in my first post, I'm 90% sure it's been written to score it this way. Strike minus but no tree points awarded.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 03:25 PM
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brujan182
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
Posts: 272

You can't use a minus tree rule to minus strike only. I ok with using 4-k. But you have to minus strike and tree both. Under that interpretation 3rd dog that never barked would be given his tree and minused also. He's just guilty of being where he shouldn't have been as dog 3. That is more fair than using a minus tree rule to minus strike. You can not use a minus tree rule to minus strike only.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 04:54 PM
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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Allen, there is no such rule to support what you are saying. It appears to me you are saying we apply half of rule 4-k, the strike half but not the tree half. That's a new one on me.

I can only find two rules that could be applied to this situation described in the first post on this thread. One is 4-f which covers a dog at a closed tree but not declared treed......and the other is 4-k which covers a dog treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives.
It seems to me the only thing we need to know here is whether or not a dog not barking is to be judged as treeing when that dog is at the tree when the judge arrives. If that dog is judged as a treed dog based on the fact that it is at the tree when the judge arrives, barking or not, then we would have to apply 4-k, every bit if it.
If the dog is only judged as a treed dog if it is actually tree barking, then in this instance we would have to apply 4-f and circle the strike because no coon is seen.
Brujan's original question is very easy to answer once we know if his dog is to be judged as a treed dog or not. That is what needs to be answered here.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 04:58 PM
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brujan182
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
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Jim put it much better than I did. You use 4k or you don't.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 05:23 PM
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GA DAWG
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

So what if its circle tree. Do we minus dog his strike cause evidently he quit his track and came to hang out at this tree to see what'd going on. I mean he at tree so he sure aint trailing whatever he was.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 05:28 PM
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brujan182
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
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I can't but argue both sides. If I'm trying to win a hunt, I'll take my minus. But you need to show me a rule shows my dog is minused.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 05:33 PM
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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
So what if its circle tree. Do we minus dog his strike cause evidently he quit his track and came to hang out at this tree to see what'd going on. I mean he at tree so he sure aint trailing whatever he was.


5-b answers that one.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 05:34 PM
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Ky Show Girl
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why was the dog handled?was there a need to call time out?when the last time a judge told anybody to handle a dog?

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Old Post 08-25-2015 06:03 PM
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brujan182
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
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Judge should always tell you to handle any dog at a tree.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 06:52 PM
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Allen / UKC
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Location: Michigan
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JiM
[B]Allen, there is no such rule to support what you are saying. It appears to me you are saying we apply half of rule 4-k, the strike half but not the tree half. That's a new one on me.

It's the slick tree part that makes 4(k) the one and only rule to apply to this dog. And you're right, it is what I am saying. There's no other rule that applies. None. The difference is that you have a dog that is there at the tree but you're saying it hasn't made a bark on tree. So actually it's the latter part of that rule that brings the debate on whether to award tree points and minus anyway, or not.

I'm not surprised that you say it's new but, again, I am 90% sure that is the way it has been ruled on in the past.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 07:32 PM
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brujan182
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
Posts: 272

Allen called, he's sticking with 4k.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 09:07 PM
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Ky Show Girl
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Registered: Mar 2013
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quote:
Originally posted by brujan182
Judge should always tell you to handle any dog at a tree.


did he come into the cast or the tree?

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Old Post 08-25-2015 09:31 PM
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Ky Show Girl
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Registered: Mar 2013
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Posts: 618

quote:
Originally posted by brujan182
Judge should always tell you to handle any dog at a tree.


did he come into the cast or the tree?

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Old Post 08-25-2015 09:31 PM
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brujan182
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
Posts: 272

All 3 dogs where at the tree when we got there.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 09:46 PM
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Ky Show Girl
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yep that them 30% Jim.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 09:54 PM
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RLenhart
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: PA.
Posts: 1738

I'm still a little confused from page 1. Do I understand correctly that this tree was standing when the dogs 1st treed on it and fell into the water after they initially treed on it?

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Old Post 08-25-2015 10:38 PM
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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
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The way I understand it is, the tree fell in the river and coon paddled away on it

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Old Post 08-25-2015 10:47 PM
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dchartt
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Registered: Jun 2013
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i cant help it LMAO, would you say these dogs were 90% accurate dogs or more like 50%, lord i apologize

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Old Post 08-25-2015 11:05 PM
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GA DAWG
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If it was a raging river. That could be a place of refuge.

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Old Post 08-25-2015 11:07 PM
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RLenhart
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: PA.
Posts: 1738

quote:
Originally posted by dchartt
i cant help it LMAO, would you say these dogs were 90% accurate dogs or more like 50%, lord i apologize

Oh Man! I thought we had that whole % formula worked out calculating coon seen with leaves on verses leaves off now you had to go and add a whole new criteria. How do we add in trees standing verses trees that fell over? and does it make a difference if the leaves were still on it when it fell over?

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Old Post 08-25-2015 11:16 PM
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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
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Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
If it was a raging river. That could be a place of refuge.


Actually as "Jim" was kind enough to point out earlier...well he actually didn't point this out, I did, after he called me ridiculous for suggesting it.
I got out the "Advisor" and as far as UKC is concerned water is not a place of refuge.
On page 135 they specifically address this...it states in part, "a body of water, whether it be a lake a mile wide or a river that has current too strong to cross, will not hold the coon; therefore, may not be considered a place of refuge."

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Old Post 08-26-2015 12:59 AM
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Joe Mueller
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Registered: Apr 2015
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Sounds like the dog that wasn't treeing should be the winner. At least it wasn't treeing on it.

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