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youngwalkerman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 170

I have a all grand female here out Dan and she has everything I won't in a young dog fast spilt treeing type dog that can trees coon but miss more than what I like and for years I have heard old timers talking about dogs treeing squirrels other day my brother came home from work she was treed with a squirrel is hard too break one from treeing them I have never had a dog doing this

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Old Post 12-21-2014 11:28 PM
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elvis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Elvis wishing you a Merry Christmas.

Same to you my Friend.

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Old Post 12-21-2014 11:34 PM
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shane_atchison
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 1009

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Mr. Fryer that is how it works. What the breed thinks they need gets bred into the hounds. Problem is, with what is being bred in there also comes many other things that you may not want.
What has it been over the years has been defined by the hunts. What it takes to win is bred in.
1. Track Power
2. Tree Power
3. Deep Hunting Hound
3. Independence
4. Mouth


That's the problem! The most important trait in a COONDOG? ACCURACY!!! List the rest by personal preference, but everyones #1 most desired trait should be ACCURACY.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:03 AM
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msinc
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Location: Maryland
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Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
That's the problem! The most important trait in a COONDOG? ACCURACY!!! List the rest by personal preference, but everyones #1 most desired trait should be ACCURACY.


Maybe I am reading into it wrong {usually do} but...I think what Mr. Conkey has been saying all along is that track power cannot take them to the wrong tree. I believe that track power or the lack of it is a direct cause of the accuracy thing. Accuracy, that is treeing on the tree that has the coon, is secondary.
I guess another way of saying it is how can a dog with a bad enough lack of tracking ability {power} ever get to the right tree consistently???

Last edited by msinc on 12-22-2014 at 03:47 AM

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:41 AM
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David Morgan
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 614

I had a conversation with Mr. Wimp Aron a while back and he told me what I thought was profound. He says if he is ever elected president that he will enact a new law. The law is that if you raise one litter of pups per year then you must hunt what you raise. Therefore I think everyone should be a breeder and have to hunt what they raise. Within 2 years there would be a lot less pups raised.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:52 AM
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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by David Morgan
I had a conversation with Mr. Wimp Aron a while back and he told me what I thought was profound. He says if he is ever elected president that he will enact a new law. The law is that if you raise one litter of pups per year then you must hunt what you raise. Therefore I think everyone should be a breeder and have to hunt what they raise. Within 2 years there would be a lot less pups raised.


I agree, but that is a pipe dream at best because yeah, you are right there would be a lot less pups raised/ registered...because the business of doing so would go under. UKC has to make money to keep it's doors open. It's like if you force developers to build only in blighted neighborhoods they simply move to another more business friendly area. Limit the number of pups that can be raised and everyone raising them will go to another kennel club.
The biggest reason UKC, one of the oldest and biggest registries of pure bred dogs is now allowing the registration of "cross breeds" is the money. One of them got mad the last time I said it but they ought to be glad I aint running that show...I'd can all of them for not coming up with this scam 20 years ago!!!!

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:59 AM
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joey
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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Here is something about breeding I find very true. When you breed your dog you do so to get a litter of pups for a reason.
The reason could be to get yourself a replacement pup, it could be to sell the pups.
With that said all dogs have faults or things we wish they were better at. You are not going to water down the faults and get rid of them in one generation. Those faults will be there in some of the pups to come back and haunt you.
They say breeding for color is the easiest thing to do and you should be able to establish a color pattern in three generations of breeding. The color you don't like will still come back to haunt you occasionally but if you make the right choices (which you can see and that makes it easy) in the three generations of breeding, you can for the most part establish a color pattern.
Now because the genetic makeup of ability can't been seen or people see it differently it takes several generations of trial and error to produce the offspring you want. Problem is what happens to those that don't fit the mold. They should be removed for the breeding pool but they ain't. They are sold for someone else to worry about.



If it was only that easy Bruce. The tools a dog has he is born with, how he uses them is taught. No matter the selective breeding you do or the culling you do if the dogs do not get into the right hands or exposed in a proper manner you will never know what you actual have like you do with color.

I read an article were scientist cloned an entire cattle herd. They all looked like the animals they were cloned from and the all reached the same size and make up, but hardly any of them had the same place in the herd. The attitude of each animal was shaped by life experience. Our hounds are the same way.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 04:49 AM
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CONRAD FRYAR
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

Very true, my own experiences are the same, it's the
" intangibles" that make the difference, that's why it is so hard. Most who don't raise allot of pups and spend allot of time with them will never notice. Out of the best bred litter of 8 there will be levels you can see, 2 very smart, 2 more close to the first 2, then you see the rest as let's say normal. They will all tree coon!
It's not always the biggest, the prettiest etc....
The bad thing about it is it takes time and money to keep a litter long enough to see the intangibles.
People years ago could let the litter run loose and watch them mature a little, I am fortunate enough to live off a good ways from the road and able to let them run free for a while, it sure helps in my decisions.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 11:56 AM
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yadkintar
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

The more discipline you have to use on your dog the more weaknesses you have in your breeding program ( this was told to me by James gimp Lewis owner of Grntch Lewis blue river bill I have never forgot it!!!!)

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Old Post 12-22-2014 12:03 PM
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Stan Ferrell
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Registered: Aug 2014
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Posts: 780

It's pretty simple, buy your hounds and pups from SUCCESSFUL hunters, NOT "breeders"

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Old Post 12-22-2014 01:23 PM
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Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Maybe I am reading into it wrong {usually do} but...I think what Mr. Conkey has been saying all along is that track power cannot take them to the wrong tree. I believe that track power or the lack of it is a direct cause of the accuracy thing. Accuracy, that is treeing on the tree that has the coon, is secondary.
I guess another way of saying it is how can a dog with a bad enough lack of tracking ability {power} ever get to the right tree consistently???



Another over simplification Track Power is more complex then this. Track power doesn't = accuracy.
Seen a lot dogs smell a coon, or at least strike right away, bawl there way into the woods like there tied to it, and come up slick.
Seen a lot dog that have lots of track power, that will switch tracks or tree for a little and take off another track nearby, or that will run track or boohoo around the woods for an hour or 2.
I think this is another area we have little understanding because we don't know how a dogs nose works.

The dog I'm hunting now, is not much of a track dog. She has a fair nose and will run those long feeder tracks, but she is a nose down dog and isn't very quick. Just steady, consistent and accurate. Shes not flashy and is about average in about every way but is extremely accurate and consistent, and has a ton of intangibles. Never trashes, opens according to track, can tree any type of coon, complete independence, never leaves a tree,very effective, and efficient

I have a pup, out of a popular line trending right now, known for being deep and lonely with lots of track power. At first I thought she was an extremely fast track dog, opening quick getting deep quick. However after seeing her work a bunch, with very little coon treed. The only thing she likes to do is run and bark. She is annoyingly wired, hops tracks consistently therefore is never really learning to track, Barks constantly and rarely gets treed. Lots of speed, big mouth, lots of track power.

Simply breeding for more track power is blind generalization imo, and be very careful for what you wish for.

The walker breed is missing a lot of intangibles we have been so caught up on the chrome, I think because its easier to market. I hear a lot of guys say "these dogs today are missing something, I'm not sure what it is?" That's because sometimes you can't put your finger on it.

Out of all the traits, the intangibles are tough to spot in a few nights of hunting with a dog. There even harder to market or promote. What most guys see and breed for is chrome imo. Thats what I see in most walker lines a whole lot of chrome, but thats about it. I have a feeling if we start breeding for accuracy, you will see start seeing a lot of these intangibles start showing back up.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 01:33 PM
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stxcoonhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2013
Location: West Columbia TX
Posts: 112

How many of you have read John Wicks book??? I think he does the best job of explaining breeding hounds and i belive it to be true and it shows in the stock he had/has. Balanced coondog to balanced coondog with proven reproducers on both sides, and not just reproducers. BALANCED COONDOGS. He talks about how this misconception of breeding a hard tree dog to a hard track dog dosent get you a balanced out coondog and i totally agree. I think there would be a whole lot less culls and we would be a lot further along if everybody read his wisdom on this and put it into practice.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 01:40 PM
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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2078

Re: Re: Re: Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13


Out of all the traits, the intangibles are tough to spot in a few nights of hunting with a dog. There even harder to market or promote. What most guys see and breed for is chrome imo. Thats what I see in most walker lines a whole lot of chrome, but thats about it. I have a feeling if we start breeding for accuracy, you will see start seeing a lot of these intangibles start showing back up. [/B]
very hard to figure things out in a few nites of hunting with a dog.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:06 PM
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Jackson87
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2012
Location: Goshen,Ohio
Posts: 2679

Yeah all that chrome is nice to until winter sets in.Then the dumb coons are dead and that quick striking fast treeing dogs don't shine like new chrome.They start looking like a rust bucket that needs took to the used car lot. You follow them around all night praying they would stop using there mouth and start using there brain.They would sure find more coons that way.Jmo

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:18 PM
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letstreeacoon
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Registered: Mar 2014
Location: ohio
Posts: 72

GET TREED

amen jackson real tree dogs only bark at tree

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:22 PM
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DOUG CHEEK
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: AUBURN, IN.
Posts: 1706

the coon seam not to run like they 30-50 years ago they would run -yes they were running a coon --there is a diff in hunting in diff parts of the country ----now day when U hit a track U have a 200--400 yard race and tree with coon or not --no tree checking just [[one bark]]] an treed ---

and if some one is with U ---he is up there some where ---

if no one is with U --U lead him off tree add a little leather send him on

happy holidays to everyone

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:33 PM
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jay brademeyer
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Registered: Mar 2005
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Posts: 2363

A fly through the country ambushing type dog doesn't have to do much tracking and has his coon almost every time...lol

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:45 PM
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msinc
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"Seen a lot dog that have lots of track power, that will switch tracks or tree for a little and take off another track nearby, or that will run track or boohoo around the woods for an hour or 2."

You have seen a lot of dogs that have "lots of track power" and this is what you are calling track power???? O.K.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 02:58 PM
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N Williams
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Registered: Dec 2010
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quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
A fly through the country ambushing type dog doesn't have to do much tracking and has his coon almost every time...lol

Exactly. I don't want to know where a coon was 2 hours ago. I want to know where he is RIGHT NOW.

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:11 PM
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msinc
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"quote:
Originally posted by jay brademeyer
A fly through the country ambushing type dog doesn't have to do much tracking and has his coon almost every time...lol

Exactly. I don't want to know where a coon was 2 hours ago. I want to know where he is RIGHT NOW."

Then why not just set a box trap and check it in the morning????

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Old Post 12-22-2014 03:33 PM
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mt.man77
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Harrisburg, Illinois
Posts: 132

mhardy you said it best ! its a crap shoot. you breed the best to the best and hope for the rest...




too many people breeding culls to these so called big time studs thinking the stud will change the world. you will get some good ones but those undesirable traits will came back thru future generations. there is no perfect cross and there never will be. you just have to decide what faults you can deal with

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Old Post 12-22-2014 04:01 PM
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Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
"Seen a lot dog that have lots of track power, that will switch tracks or tree for a little and take off another track nearby, or that will run track or boohoo around the woods for an hour or 2."

You have seen a lot of dogs that have "lots of track power" and this is what you are calling track power???? O.K.



I'm not

I just don't think track power = lots of treed coon. To me, like others have posted a balance of traits = lots of treed coon. Most of the guys I know that are hung up on track power or breeding track power, have dogs that appear to really drive a track, but at the end of the day, there dogs don't tree as many coon as those hunting a balanced dog. Since our goal is to breed a coon dog, to me how many coon a dog can tree regardless of the chrome, should be the ultimate deciding factor.

These are just my opinions not trying to stir up any hard feelings

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Old Post 12-22-2014 04:56 PM
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Fisher13
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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:
Originally posted by DOUG CHEEK
the coon seam not to run like they 30-50 years ago they would run -yes they were running a coon --there is a diff in hunting in diff parts of the country ----now day when U hit a track U have a 200--400 yard race and tree with coon or not --no tree checking just [[one bark]]] an treed ---

and if some one is with U ---he is up there some where ---

if no one is with U --U lead him off tree add a little leather send him on

happy holidays to everyone



lol

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Old Post 12-22-2014 04:57 PM
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john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

If everyone wanted the same style dog things would be alot simpler, and the part of the country we live in also plays a large role in what type hound is the most productive.
I live in pretty thick coon and hunt mostly patch woods (corn country). The last thing i need is a track dog, or one that checks himself before he settles. I want one to leave fast with nothing on his mind but gettin parked under a coon.
If i had to climb a mountain or wade a swamp to look at a tree i would probably look at things a little different. Accuracy isnt free, its a trade off, when a guy says he has one thats 90% accurate I can almost guarantee that my 60% plugs will get parked under more sets of eyes by the end of the night.
I guess it boils down to why your out there, if ya enjoy sittin on a log listenin to old accurate spend a half hour sortin out that feeder track like grandpa used to do more power to ya, id rather be out there with a dog that is rockin and rollin. The last issue of prohound i opened was still plumb full of walker dogs in the winners circle, now wheather they tracked down those coon or just blast through the timber lookin for a popup, they still got the job done. And thats why most of the crossbred litters will be half walker dog, and its also why the big winning crossbreds to date were half walker.

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 12-22-2014 at 06:29 PM

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Old Post 12-22-2014 06:23 PM
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msinc
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Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
I'm not

I just don't think track power = lots of treed coon. To me, like others have posted a balance of traits = lots of treed coon. Most of the guys I know that are hung up on track power or breeding track power, have dogs that appear to really drive a track, but at the end of the day, there dogs don't tree as many coon as those hunting a balanced dog. Since our goal is to breed a coon dog, to me how many coon a dog can tree regardless of the chrome, should be the ultimate deciding factor.

These are just my opinions not trying to stir up any hard feelings



Nothing stirred up at all...I totally agree track power don't equal # of coons a given dog can tree. I also don't believe that anyone should breed just for track power. It might be good to introduce some to a line that needs more but you can have too much. I also think there is a difference between nose power and track power. For example, to me track power, or whatever you want to call it would have to include things like sense enough to check for a tapped tree, etc. Getting to the right tree is one thing, the locate even if a dog doesn't give much of a locate bark, is the point which a track ends and the treeing begins. It is also the part where nose and sensibility about being right change to just letting us know where we need to be {at the tree.}

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