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quote:

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Originally posted by truly

3- your father and conhrt's examples are all over the age of 50. They all grew up in a different era. They grew up when this country was "more socialist". There were more opportunities 30-60 years ago. College was cheaper, Pell grants were easier to get, 40% Unionization drove up prevailing wages. As a 45 year old I can see the cut off. Folks used to work one or two jobs and retire with a pension. Now many are pushed into contract work and job hop year to year. Things are just different now. Everyone knows it. SOme just want to blame it on Obama, some realize that we have true underlying fundamental problems with how our economy works. But things are different. There is all sorts of data that suggest that income mobility has bottomed out.

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Originally posted by trackdriver
James is stock,traded around the league to the highest bidder just as America has been bought and sold,so next time y'all complain about jobs going overseas or how Obama isn't a patriot remember capitalism has no friends only dollars.

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Originally posted by conhtr1
The reason some succeed and others don't has to do mostly with their drive to succeed. I'm about the same age as Obama, Oprah, and Buffett. How is it that I didn't make as much money or get elected President? Maybe it's because my choices were based on different goals.
Why is it I keep hearing about all these immigrants coming here, starting a business and getting wealthy and yet citizens here aren't? Maybe it's because they put their heart and soul into their work while "we" are taking vacations, going to the casinos, spending everything left from our paycheck to eat out or go to the movies or go to sporting events. 'We" spend more on luxury than necessity....just stand behind someone spending their food stamp card buying junk food instead of staple foods.

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quote:

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Originally posted by conhtr1
Are you saying he's enslaved by the money?

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quote:

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Originally posted by conhtr1
The reason some succeed and others don't has to do mostly with their drive to succeed. I'm about the same age as Obama, Oprah, and Buffett. How is it that I didn't make as much money or get elected President? Maybe it's because my choices were based on different goals.

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Truly, good idea with the numbers. I hadn't thought of that my post was getting a little long winded!

You're right socialism does require people to only take what the STATE deems necessary the problem with that, is the old human nature I spoke of, and no amount of legislation can change that nature! People always seek to take advantage.To your point about taxing the wealthy the (Lebron) that is another pitfall with socialism. Back to our original illustration with the students socialism penalizes the working, achiving students by taxing them into oblivion.Socialism penalize those who succeed!! That is why I originally stated socialism leaves people with only dreams. Also a major problem with this system is who gets to decide how much is enough.Your example of Walmart is another great example of how capitalism pulls people out of poverty. Sam Walton grew up dirt poor on his faimlies farm during the depression. Now his company provide services that we all want and need. It was successful so the company grew to provide more for the citizens, but now look how his company is demonized. Again the successful are punished.For socailsm to take hold the wealthy are all sterotyped as GREEDY!! That simply is not true, and is unfair to those who have worked their tails off to get were they are!! I think maybe I lumped one and two together there.

3. I would have to completely disagree the people Conhrt was referring to grew up in a much more capitalistic society!! I think the numbers clearly bear that out. We have today a record number of people dependent on the government.(welfare,food stamps, and so on). I come to the complete opposite conclusion we need a bigger shot of capitalism!! In this day and age then we did then .

4. Is where I can somewhat agree!! It has just recently come to light for me. My wife and I visited a nursing home every week ,as I've gotten to know the residence there, I realized that a lot of them have outlived their families and money. Any society worth its salt ,cares and provides for its weakest and most vulnerable members! Children with the ones in the womb being the most vulnerable and the elderly. Although most socialize countries seek to destroy these two groups. These nursing homes, and children services are a form of socialism.

5. I still contend that the reason the United States has become a super power in less than 300 years, is because of people like Sam Walton. That's why they are commonly referred to as the greatest generation! We could stand to learn a few things from them. They sought a HAND UP not a HAND OUT!!

This has been a great debate Truly!! I appreciate the manner in which you have spoken to me!!

Now finally to coon hunting!! You are more of a man than I Truly!! With the temps in the single digits, and snow. I've stayed right next to the fire!! LOL! Getting cabin fever though may try tonight. With best outcome being a den! I don't know though it would be a good night to listen to a dog blister a deer!! As long as its my buddies!!!LOL

Last edited by TomPurdy on 12-14-2013 at 08:52 PM

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Originally posted by truly
I think based on your age it seems sensible that you believe this. Unfortunately it is no longer true.
I am gonna provide the wiki link and some choice snippets, but I encourage everyone to go read this. Because income mobility really is at the heart of the American dream. And that dream is dead. If this facet of who we are as Americans is important to you/us, then we need to make changes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-...e_United_States

Some studies have found that not only is the degree of social mobility in the US not large but it has either remained unchanged or decreased since the 1970s.

Other research shows that economic mobility in the U.S. increased from 1950 to 1980 but has declined sharply since 1980.

Belief in strong social and economic mobility—that Americans can and do rise from humble origins to riches—has been called a "civil religion",[4] "the bedrock upon which the American story has been anchored",[5] and part of the American identity (the American Dream[6]), celebrated in the lives of famous Americans such as Benjamin Franklin and Henry Ford,[4] and in popular culture (from the books of Horatio Alger and Norman Vincent Peale to the song "Movin' on Up"[7]). Opinion polls show that this belief has been both stronger in the US than in years past, and stronger than in other developed countries.[8]
However, in recent years several large studies have found that vertical inter-generational mobility is lower, not higher, in the US than in those countries.[4]

The Brookings Institution said in 2013 that income inequality was increasing and becoming permanent, sharply reducing social mobility.

At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.

The Economist also stated that "evidence from social scientists suggests that American society is much 'stickier' than most Americans assume. ... would-be Horatio Algers are finding it no easier to climb from rags to riches, while the children of the privileged have a greater chance of staying at the top of the social heap.

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Originally posted by truly
Oh, and one more thing,
Tom, now that you have stated that their are certain aspects of Socialism that are positive, I wonder if you would share what those things are? Just curious..
Would this qualify? As a society we value having lots of "houses of worship". Because of this we have made them tax exempt in numerous ways- in particular in most states they pay no property tax. Is this socialist? Is it good? Is it even arguably anti capitalist?

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Pope Francis:
Defending his criticism of the "trickle-down" theory of economics, he added: "There was the promise that once the glass had become full it would overflow and the poor would benefit. But what happens is that when it's full to the brim, the glass magically grows, and thus nothing ever comes out for the poor ...

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Originally posted by TomPurdy

5. I still contend that the reason the United States has become a super power in less than 300 years, is because of people like Sam Walton. That's why they are commonly referred to as the greatest generation! We could stand to learn a few things from them. They sought a HAND UP not a HAND OUT!!

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Originally posted by TomPurdy
Sorry Truly, I missed your question here. I stated in my post above, some of the aspects of socialism I agree with. I can only speak here of the Christian churches I've been involved with!! Which are numerous. They are one of the puriest examples of why capitalism is successful. I will use your number system to try and explain. Again this is not a blanket statement. This is just from my experiences.

1. Churches use private property. General donated by a member or former member.

2. They are funded solely by charitable donation given by their members.( Pastors salary included)

3. They do not ever apply for any type of government subsidies.

4. They are well maintained because the people have a vested interest. They have spent their OWN money to insure its success. This to me is the greatest difference. Unlike government funded housing, often referred to as slums. The people in the slums do not have a vested interest, they use someone else's money, the government has taken from someone else's to provide for them. They have no skin in the game, and it is reflected in the way they conduct themselves!! Nobody spends someone else's money wisley!! It's that old human nature!!

5. You're right they are tax exempt. They do not give to the government, and they do not except the government to give to them!! If only we would live our individual lives that way!!

In conclusion my answer is no. Churches are a great example of capitalism!!

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Again Truly, not to beat a dead horse, but 20 years ago this country was far more capitalistic that it is today!! I don't think that's disputable numbers pretty well prove it. Again this is another example of how socialism demonizes success.

People flock to Walmart because they offer better service cheaper! More bang for your buck!! If you don't think so price a gallon of milk at Wal-Mart than go price that same gallon at the country store. I'm with you I like the little store better, but you will see what makes Wal-Mart succesful. The idea that big corporations are evil is a lie.

I will explain, now I know the left hates factory farms, but they all love bacon, and eggs!! Everyday everyone uses bacon ,milk ,and eggs, but not everyone wants to or has the opportunity to raise a pig, cow, and chicken! Someone has to do it for us, and by the millions. Who knows what the ratio is between the producer and consumer. I think you, and I would both agree it would be pretty lopsided. Look at the automobile industry we all drive vehicles, but we can't all construct a vehicle. Henry Ford figured out how to do so.And by doing so allows us to do other things other than make our own vehicle.

Never forget that in a capitalistic society Walmart could easily be Purdy- Mart if I would have figured it out. Don't get me wrong I love Mom and Pop ,but Mom and Pop can't meet the demands of the masses, and if they succeed in doing so suddenly they turn into a big corporation.

If you remember back during the presidential campaign President Obama accused Mitt of wanting to take us back to the 50's. I find that ironic because if the Left succeeds, in killing big business we will go back to the 20's ,we will all have to raise our own pig!

I appreciate the discussion Truly, you have really made me think!! I'm kinda strapped for time, but I will try to get to the church, but it might be a day or so. Thanks Again!!

Last edited by TomPurdy on 12-15-2013 at 09:04 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomPurdy
Again Truly, not to beat a dead horse, but 20 years ago this country was far more capitalistic that it is today!! I don't think that's disputable numbers pretty well prove it.

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Increasing of liberals has decreased the strength and foundation of this nation and what it was founded on. Our nations founding fathers came here to start a free country not a society of free hand outs because you don't want to work and contribute to society. If you look at how far down we have went in the past 20-30 yrs it is due to the liberal beliefs. More and more tree huggers, fur huggers and the like. You can't get a $1 piece of candy with just $.47 and that is what I see the liberal leadership wanting. JMO

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Originally posted by truly
Explain why you hold this belief.

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Last edited by TomPurdy on 12-16-2013 at 04:17 AM

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Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, I don't believe it's a belief, it more of a indisputable fact!!
1
Here are the numbers of people who received government assistance in these particular years we are speaking of. 1962-11.7% or 21.7 million, compared to 2010-21.8% or 67.3 million.I got these numbers from the Heritage Foundations. I know that is a conservative group, but if you look at the Census numbers they reflect the same. Numbers don't lie so, I believe we could now agree that in 1962 the country was far more capitalist!!

2
Truly, as far as the church goes I believe you have confused exemptions with subsidies!! There is a HUGE difference!! An exemption is simply not being required to pay a certain tax! A subsidy is receiving taxpayer's money!

Again you are correct churchs are exempt, and there is know denying that is a benefit. However it is their own money they are keeping!! You are wrong in the fact that they receive money from the government. That would be a sudsidy.

What happened in your post was it made the exemptions to look like that was money the church was receiving from the government through taxpayers. That is incorrect. The church is simply allowed to keep their own money by not being taxed!

As to your point that the members can write off their charitable gifts that is correct. However here again that is a exemption given to the individual not the church as a whole! To assume that is money given to them by taxpayers is simply incorrect!!

You are correct that if a emergency occurs. The taxpayers do pickup that tab!!

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BTW though, If a tax exemption is not a subsidy, then would you say that green energy companies have received almost no subsidies? Is it fair for me to say that I have received no subsidies for all of the solar panels on my roof?
Is TIF not a subsidy?
How about EIC?

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Truly, I believe our debate is coming to a head. It has been a good one. You have presented yourself very well!!

1. Truly, if you want to contend the numbers, I gave you are false. We might be able to continue the debate on this first point . However to say that just because the Democrats were in control of the country at that time is of no consequence. Regardless of who was in control, and what their policies were, the numbers prove that in 1962 the country was far more capitalistic!! In 1962 there were less people taking someone else's money!! In 2010 there were more people taking someone else's money redistribution of wealth!! (SOCIALISM) The numbers would have to be in Reverse if it is as you say, and it wouldn't matter who is in control!! I've clearly stated why capitalism gives people the opportunity to succeed, but in this post you say socialism gives people the opportunity.However throughout our whole debate, you have failed to show how they get that opportunity.

As a sidebar here I would like to add. That the Democrats of the good old era would have to run as members of the Tea Party today!! But I digress!!!

2. It absolutely matters if you receive a subsidy or a exemption. Politicians love to confuse people here, again a sudsidy is the government taking money from taxpayers, and GIVING that money to other people!! ( Taking from Peter and giving to Paul) That is a subsidy!!! A tax exemption is not being required to pay a certain tax!! A tax exemption IS NOT an expenditure!!! We cannot just sweep this point under the rug, and say exemption, subsidy whatever!! It makes all the difference in the world!! I have clearly stated that being tax exempt is a benefit to the church!! However you posted that you have seen numbers up to 70 billion GIVEN to churches in the form of subsidies! Again paid for by the taxpayers. That is undeniably False!!

3. Again the church is one of the purest examples of capitalism!! Because they pay no tax, and receive no subsidies. They survive within their means!!!

Last edited by TomPurdy on 12-18-2013 at 03:22 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by truly
BTW though, If a tax exemption is not a subsidy, then would you say that green energy companies have received almost no subsidies? Is it fair for me to say that I have received no subsidies for all of the solar panels on my roof?
Is TIF not a subsidy?
How about EIC?

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TomPurdy
[B]
As a sidebar here I would like to add. That the Democrats of the good old era would have to run as members of the Tea Party today!! But I digress it!!

I also think the democrats of 50 yrs ago would have nuthin to do with modern day democrats. Most of the Democrats of that day had morals and were for the working man. I see the democratic party 50 yrs ago being more like the republican party today and the democrats of today being socialist. Norman Thomas said the american people would never knowingly accept the socialist party. Well the wolf has came in sheeps clothing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, I believe our debate is coming to a head. It has been a good one. You have presented yourself very well!!

1. Truly, if you want to contend the numbers, I gave you are false. We might be able to continue the debate on this first point . However to say that just because the Democrats were in control of the country at that time is of no consequence. Regardless of who was in control, and what their policies were, the numbers prove that in 1962 the country was far more capitalistic!! In 1962 there were less people taking someone else's money!! In 2010 there were more people taking someone else's money redistribution of wealth!! (SOCIALISM) The numbers would have to be in Reverse if it is as you say, and it wouldn't matter who is in control!! I've clearly stated why capitalism gives people the opportunity to succeed, but in this post you say socialism gives people the opportunity.However throughout our whole debate, you have failed to show how they get that opportunity.

As a sidebar here I would like to add. That the Democrats of the good old era would have to run as members of the Tea Party today!! But I digress!!!

2. It absolutely matters if you receive a subsidy or a exemption. Politicians love to confuse people here, again a sudsidy is the government taking money from taxpayers, and GIVING that money to other people!! ( Taking from Peter and giving to Paul) That is a subsidy!!! A tax exemption is not being required to pay a certain tax!! A tax exemption IS NOT an expenditure!!! We cannot just sweep this point under the rug, and say exemption, subsidy whatever!! It makes all the difference in the world!! I have clearly stated that being tax exempt is a benefit to the church!! However you posted that you have seen numbers up to 70 billion GIVEN to churches in the form of subsidies! Again paid for by the taxpayers. That is undeniably False!!

3. Again the church is one of the purest examples of capitalism!! Because they pay no tax, and receive no subsidies. They survive within their means!!!

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Truly, if you go back and read your posts you will see that you asked me about the church.It has nothing to do with what I like you asked the question, but didn't like the answer!!

Our debate has come to an end, simply because all I can do is repeat what I've already stated!! Again, You stated that taxpayers pick up the tab for churches!!! You were proven wrong!! There is nothing left to debate on this matter!! But I'm sure we will lock horns again!! LOL!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by TomPurdy
Truly, I don't believe it's a belief, it more of a indisputable fact!! Here are the numbers of people who received government assistance in these particular years we are speaking of. 1962-11.7% or 21.7 million, compared to 2010-21.8% or 67.3 million.I got these numbers from the Heritage Foundations. I know that is a conservative group, but if you look at the Census numbers they reflect the same. Numbers don't lie so, I believe we could now agree that in 1962 the country was far more capitalist!!

Truly, as far as the church goes I believe you have confused exemptions with subsidies!! There is a HUGE difference!! An exemption is simply not being required to pay a certain tax! A subsidy is receiving taxpayer's money!

Again you are correct churchs are exempt, and there is know denying that is a benefit. However it is their own money they are keeping!! You are wrong in the fact that they receive money from the government. That would be a sudsidy.

What happened in your post was it made the exemptions to look like that was money the church was receiving from the government through taxpayers. That is incorrect. The church is simply allowed to keep their own money by not being taxed!

As to your point that the members can write off their charitable gifts that is correct. However here again that is a exemption given to the individual not the church as a whole! To assume that is money given to them by taxpayers is simply incorrect!!

You are correct that if a emergency occurs. The taxpayers do pickup that tab!!

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Originally posted by boozeboxer
I do not believe the number of people on government assistance (or the amount of aid they receive) is a reliable indicator on how "capitalist" an economy is, much less the only factor.
Always remember: There are lies, **** lies, and statistics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by boozeboxer
I do not believe the number of people on government assistance (or the amount of aid they receive) is a reliable indicator on how "capitalist" an economy is, much less the only factor.
Always remember: There are lies, **** lies, and statistics.

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