Registered: Aug 2006
Location: munfordville ky.
Posts: 1166

i think your on the right track line breeding. being very picky to breed females for yourself that complement what you already got with out changing what you got.

look at the walkers. for years they have bred for dogs that go to the next county before hunting. hard explosive tree dogs. yep they absolutly got it but while consintrating so much infasis on tree they lost track power for the most part.

look at the breeding for an all grand pedegree. think about this. if your breeding only for an all grand pedegree only. with out knowing the traits of all dogs on that pedegree & you get 2 or 3 different style dogs. how can you get a consistant litter of pups. then you lost what you got.

i dont care what anybody says the only way to consistantly keep what you got & build on it is line breeding. making out cross's only on dogs with pedegrees of dogs with your style. that have the same hunting style. not a certain dog but its off spring & absolutly stay as far away from lines that have something that is different in their style.

look at this. how many times do you go to a tree in hot weather a walker dog is standing on the tree smokin it & still freash. you got a black dog standing on the tree with his tongh hangin down to his knee's cookin. its not because that black dog is black. an excuss we like to use for them over heating. its in their breeding. most big boned heavey black dogs over heat because their size. lean leggy black dogs are less prone to over heating.

there is so much we got to look at breeding besides what ol so & so won. the question is. is ol so & so reproducing his or her self or better !! does my female have the same traits as what i'm breeding for.

goes back to i got a super female & i want to breed her to the best i can breed her to. what has that sire & his ancesters reproduced best with. what has my female & her ancesters reproduced best with & can it keep the same traits my dog has.

kentucky got smoked in the 1st round of the nit & i'm in a writing mood tonight to help me get over it !! LOL

__________________
ROUGH CREEK BLACK & TANS
jim kilburn
munfordville ky
270 524 3585

HOME OF
ntchgrch.rough creek easys ragin cole HTX (co owner david miller)
grntchch.rough creek getto queen
ntchch.rough creek bumble bea (co owner jamie swann)
pr.rough creek special ed (walker dog)

PAST HOME OF
ntch.rough creek easy ace
grntchgrch.rough creek easys thunderstick HTX
grntchgrch.rough creek little ann
grntchgrch.hurikane creek uglystick
grntchgrch.rough creek double shot
grntchgrch.rough creek easys big timber
grntchgrch.rough creek little zipper
grntchgrch.puke box annie
grntchgrch.shaker hill sho gun
grntchgrch.mogan ridge rough creek dolly
ntchch.rough creek smokin spazz
ntch.rough creek black satin
ntch.diblings northern grace

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 2785

Well , my dogs are linebred and I linebreed to ... but I do it knowing that it has limitations .

The landmark studs and gyps that folks are trying to reproduce and linebreed around .. .weren't linebred and didn't come from tight breeding !

How can you reproduce something if you are using the wrong recipe ? I know alot of those dogs like Buck II , Ace or whatever had a few common ancestors .. the closest term you could use for any of em' is loosely linebred.

All breeds of livestock came from a super cross that reproduced ... those wonder years were animals with alot of balance and health ... when they start getting pure , their winning ways start trailing off and the law of averages pull em' toward mediocrity.

That's just the history of all kinds of stock .... a breed settles into working for folks and everyone gets comfy with what they got and don't need to experiment so they don't.

Necessity is the mother of invention .. she invented those great dogs because folks needed something better .


All a guy can do is breed for his needs , if you aren't hitting the road hard or hunting against top notch dogs ...you won't need the kind of dog that something like Buck II ... and you will never be able to breed one .

Nothing can be greater than the condition that forged it .... until you realize that and are honest about the conditions you hunt and train in .. you will be forevermore tormented by what you get.

Only hard times can make hard men ....

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

---

Originally posted by roughcreek
its a sad day when guys give up on their breed & think we need to go outside the breed to improve it !! all you got to do is watch this board.

what should i breed my female to?
the same ones get on here, breed to this, breed to that, with out using common sence & aint got a clue what traits the female has. you just blurt out the same thing over & over & over & aint got a clue on strong points or week points. probly most aint even hunted with the dog or MOST IMPORTANT WHAT THAT DOG IS REPRODUCING. their tellin people to breed to this dog because its your buddy or your buddys buddy that owns the dog !!

my females got a hole in her what do i breed to, to fix it in her pups !!
its a constant circle i breed to fix this then i breed to fix that then i breed to fix the next hole. next thing you know 20 years down the road your still trying to fix somethin & aint got no better.

a post i seen on here a week or so ago about tight mouth dogs & other post about tight mouth dogs. i was shocked at the b&t people that said they like & want a tight mouth dog. then we get on here & wonder why we cant win. hell we'r breedin to loose !!

then you look at the people in the b&t breed that want & breed for a super cold nose dog thats gona hit a bad track & woller that thing around for a half hour to tree a coon. while the hoter nose dog has dun scored a coon & cut back in & runnin another track while ol poky is finaly getin tree'd. the other dog is a coon or two ahead of you & workin on another. now i aint knockin on the cold nose dog. they can win & do win. there is nights they can smoke ya BUT what are your walker dogs the dogs that win the big hunts as a whole. get their nose off the ground hotter nosed with drive to get in the country quick & get under a coon quick.

so you'v got this style black dog. a little hotter nose drive & speed solid treedog. something that is a constant competitor. the 1st time you breed to a cold nose dog you lost what you had !! the 1st time you breed to a dog with a super mouth that is not the same style dog your huntin. you lost what you got. the 1st time you breed for a 150 bpm treedog thats not the same style dog. you lost what you got. my feeling is breed for strenghts & not to try to change. breed to improve your dogs strength & let the rest fall into place. hopefully thats drive speed & a solid treedog. one that aint peckin tree's all over the woods & takin last strike.

if you go to the woods & your happy every night when you come out YOU AINT GOT YOUR EYES OPEN. YOU AINT BEING TRUTHFULL WITH YOUR SELF ABOUT YOUR DOG !! if you can go out on a night your dog cant do nothin wrong & cant pick it apart & see something that could have been dun better. you aint bein truthfull with yourself !!

THATS WHAT THE MAIN PROBLEM WITH OUR BREED IS. IF WE CANT BE TRUTHFULL WITH OUR SELF ABOUT OUR DOGS FAULTS. OUR BREED AINT NEVER GONA IMPROVE !!

maybe i didnt do the best job of trying to discuss MIXING different style dogs. i wasnt tryin to step on no toes or down any style dog. just talkin about the difference in dogs & not mixing them together.

WE DONT NEED TO BREED TO WALKERS OR ANYTHING ELSE TO IMPROVE. WE NEED TO MAKE BETTER DICISIONS ON WHAT WE'R BREEDIN & WHY !!

---

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

---

Originally posted by roughcreek
.
look at the breeding for an all grand pedegree. think about this. if your breeding only for an all grand pedegree only. with out knowing the traits of all dogs on that pedegree & you get 2 or 3 different style dogs. how can you get a consistant litter of pups. then you lost what you got.

---

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

Dirtdevil, you claim Tiger Lilly, Sunvalley Butch and Lawsons Big Hoss were cross bred yet all of these dogs were pr registered, which means they had at least a 4 or 7 generation Purple Ribbon (PR) pedigree behind them. So tell me what was the outcross on these dogs.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: munfordville ky.
Posts: 1166

i'm not argueing just carying on conversation.
dont you think if your making litters of dogs with the same traits that your lookin for in dogs that can compete your odds of getting that special dog are better than haphazerd breeding.

what i'm trying to say is. our breed & other breeds dogs have different traits & hunt styles. differnt strenghts & weekness's. its up to each of us to study & think & think again & study some more on why i'm breeding & what am i trying to get.

breeding coondog to coondog aint gettin it.
breeding coondog to coondog with the same above average traits & only the same traits just might work 2 or 3 generations down the road.

__________________
ROUGH CREEK BLACK & TANS
jim kilburn
munfordville ky
270 524 3585

HOME OF
ntchgrch.rough creek easys ragin cole HTX (co owner david miller)
grntchch.rough creek getto queen
ntchch.rough creek bumble bea (co owner jamie swann)
pr.rough creek special ed (walker dog)

PAST HOME OF
ntch.rough creek easy ace
grntchgrch.rough creek easys thunderstick HTX
grntchgrch.rough creek little ann
grntchgrch.hurikane creek uglystick
grntchgrch.rough creek double shot
grntchgrch.rough creek easys big timber
grntchgrch.rough creek little zipper
grntchgrch.puke box annie
grntchgrch.shaker hill sho gun
grntchgrch.mogan ridge rough creek dolly
ntchch.rough creek smokin spazz
ntch.rough creek black satin
ntch.diblings northern grace

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2010
Location: Travelers rest S.C
Posts: 887

I think there are black dogs out there that can compete on a national level an win. Ive hunted with a few that were real impressive! There is a difference in b&ts an walkers in hunt styles for the most part from what I've seen.

But 90% of the b&t owners I no that have a good black dog are just blue collered family men. Not saying other breeds owners aren't.

But I mean if you really studyed bout it what names pop out to you bout really pushing a black dog in UKC/PKC,

Dean miller
Corey sexton
Chad mccoin
Jeff nelson.
Cobles

That's just the ones to come to my mind. Now when you list the walker owners that list is huge! I think that is the only problem with the breed witch is really not a problem. You see were all these other breeds win, ask em how many they lose!

I've always thought of it like this it takes 8 hunts to go from nothing to grand. If the dog your hunting takes 20 plus more there's something wrong there. Yes I no you can win your cast an not get the 1st or get a ntch cast win but not get the overall. But if your loseing more then your winning there's were the blinders need to come off. Lol. Every dog is the best dog by itself with nothing to measure it against.

I've hunted with a lot of other breeds that are slick treeing , track straddling idiots. An they win a lot. But they lose a lot more.

I hunted English dogs for along time, an I had some goodens over the years, but these black dogs have spoiled me. An I like em. 10 years ago if you had of told me I'd be hunting black dogs today I would have laughed.

I personally think like Jim. Breed above average to above average!

Last edited by WORMY#1 on 03-21-2013 at 11:41 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: saluda, sc
Posts: 441

Wher would the quarter horse be if not for the thorough bred? Them ol cowboys wanted a better cow pony and bam doc bar. Paints and apps soon followed. Now they all look the same except for color, spots etc. same with coon dogs, plotts don't really look like old ones, Black and Tan Blueticks not as heavy as the old ones. IMHO alot of out crosses have been made or they would look like the did way back then. Before long they'll all be the same just different colors.

__________________
ROBIN "RED" FREEMAN
(864) 992-6578

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: timberlake nc
Posts: 915

quote:

---

Originally posted by WORMY#1
I think there are black dogs out there that can compete on a national level an win. Ive hunted with a few that were real impressive! There is a difference in b&ts an walkers in hunt styles for the most part from what I've seen.

But 90% of the b&t owners I no that have a good black dog are just blue collered family men. Not saying other breeds owners aren't.

But I mean if you really studyed bout it what names pop out to you bout really pushing a black dog in UKC/PKC,

Dean miller
Corey sexton
Chad mccoin
Jeff nelson.
Cobles

That's just the ones to come to my mind. Now when you list the walker owners that list is huge! I think that is the only problem with the breed witch is really not a problem. You see were all these other breeds win, ask em how many they lose!

I've always thought of it like this it takes 8 hunts to go from nothing to grand. If the dog your hunting takes 20 plus more there's something wrong there. Yes I no you can win your cast an not get the 1st or get a ntch cast win but not get the overall. But if your loseing more then your winning there's were the blinders need to come off. Lol. Every dog is the best dog by itself with nothing to measure it against.

I've hunted with a lot of other breeds that are slick treeing , track straddling idiots. An they win a lot. But they lose a lot more.

I hunted English dogs for along time, an I had some goodens over the years, but these black dogs have spoiled me. An I like em. 10 years ago if you had of told me I'd be hunting black dogs today I would have laughed.

I personally think like Jim. Breed above average to above average!

---

__________________
Chris Rigg
8202 Bacon Rd
Timberlake NC 27583

NITECH GRCH PR GUNNER'S RAGIN BARNEY--4 yrs GUNNER X DIAMOND

CH RIGG'S MAGIC DREAM HTX--7 yrs SINGLE REGISTERED ( COON DOG !!!! )

PR RIGG'S KY RIVER KATE--1yr GUNNER X QUEEN ,2nd place win



Black Dog Cartel Kennel
Chris, Melisa,C.J. and Ty
919-210-4537

ABTCHA MEMBER
SEBTCHA MEMBER

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: saluda, sc
Posts: 441

I read in the Tennessee mountains a sign in the area this hound was stolen and taken to Kentucky by a horse trader where he was bred to walkers. I'm almost positive the sign read he was Black and Tan. shoulda hung that guy!
i got this from ukc and wikipedia.
The breed originated in the United States when a stolen dog of unknown origin, known as the "Tennessee Lead", was crossed into the Walker Hound in the 19th century.[2]

__________________
ROBIN "RED" FREEMAN
(864) 992-6578

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 3735

Freeman,thats how they put the brakes on them fox hounds.lol

__________________
Twix
Gr Nt CH TREE SLAMMIN HAMMER

2011 RQE NEWPORT,TN 5 TH PLACE
2011 WORLD Qualifier
2011 BnT Days Cast Winner
2012 Cast Winner TN State
2012 3 rd Place Grnt,s BNT days
2012 World Qualifier Meigs Cnty RQE 4 rth place
2012 zones Virginia 4rth place
2012 TOP 100 WORLD HUNT
2013 4th high scoring dog fri night,TN State
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Black Bear
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Bigtime Drama
2014 World Qualifier

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: nashville,tn
Posts: 629

thats funny.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 1185

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amish Mafia
Mike,

Both.... And names of the owners. Thank you much

---

__________________
Get deep or Get Beat!

Last edited by Sonny Phipps on 03-22-2013 at 03:58 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Mountains of NC
Posts: 1255

I will take two of those lol

__________________
Mike McKinney

I use Sunfire lights

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Missouri
Posts: 5

I have hunted black dogs for 30 years the best dog I ever followed I got from Wayne schenker big dog with not a lot of breeding behind him . He could take a track a lot of do gs couldn't run and tree it. Got him out ofoklahoma. Been breeding dogs every since have not been able to get one like him yet. I have bought pups hasn't worked out yet. Until now I finally bought a pup out of as good a female as I could find he is out of ron risers thumper female and Don egli rage dog I have a lot of hope that he is the dog I have been looking for.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

quote:

---

Originally posted by roughcreek
its a sad day when guys give up on their breed & think we need to go outside the breed to improve it !!

---

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

quote:

---

Originally posted by chaps red oak
gfults me an wally try real hard!! better be easy you hurt some feelings lol

---

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I'll show you Dark Hollow Slams lil Rebel any night you want to walk after him. Bring tennis shoes. He does all of what was mentioned.

---

Rebel is a nice hound thru and thru! Can I take any credit for helping in that process??

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

Like ive said before, there are some individuals out there that are nice hounds. But AS A WHOLE, the breed is lacking, PERIOD! And i never said we had to go to the walker breed to get it neither, yall assumed that, so what does that tell ya?? When i talk about winning on a big stage, im referring to Prohunts, PKC national race, truck hunts etc. Im talking about where the best hounds and handlers are at!

__________________
Skin that one pilgrim and I'll bring ya another

Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Pa. Junior
Tenn. Black Lexus( Pa. Junior x Hulios Lil Stripper)

PKC Ch. Tenn. Blackjack- R.I.P.

Last edited by gfults on 03-22-2013 at 02:42 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Mountains of NC
Posts: 1255

Well we do need to work on the breed but its not a walker that I need. I feel you hunt what you like if it turns your crank lay with it. But there are black crosses to be made to get what you want. Don't care what they done 30 years ago breeding I don't have to follow.

__________________
Mike McKinney

I use Sunfire lights

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2010
Location: Roopville GA
Posts: 238

dawgg03
SAY IT AGAIN ( DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW)!!!!!!!

__________________
GRNITECH 'PR' JUNIOR'S DARK HOLLOW DAISY
2012 Winter Classic High Score B&T Female Also 1st Pl GrNite Saturday

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2010
Location: Roopville GA
Posts: 238

People want breed to the dogs that need to be breed to is one promblem we have in our breed . I know of two right off my head that throws coon dogs one will be dead before people see they missed out on him the other is starting to get breed a little more. But they need to open there eyes and get on one side of the fence or the other!!!!

__________________
GRNITECH 'PR' JUNIOR'S DARK HOLLOW DAISY
2012 Winter Classic High Score B&T Female Also 1st Pl GrNite Saturday

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 3735

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJL
People want breed to the dogs that need to be breed to is one promblem we have in our breed . I know of two right off my head that throws coon dogs one will be dead before people see they missed out on him the other is starting to get breed a little more. But they need to open there eyes and get on one side of the fence or the other!!!!

---

__________________
Twix
Gr Nt CH TREE SLAMMIN HAMMER

2011 RQE NEWPORT,TN 5 TH PLACE
2011 WORLD Qualifier
2011 BnT Days Cast Winner
2012 Cast Winner TN State
2012 3 rd Place Grnt,s BNT days
2012 World Qualifier Meigs Cnty RQE 4 rth place
2012 zones Virginia 4rth place
2012 TOP 100 WORLD HUNT
2013 4th high scoring dog fri night,TN State
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Black Bear
2014 World Qualifier

Nt Ch Hammers Bigtime Drama
2014 World Qualifier

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2011
Location: Mountains of NC
Posts: 1255

Your right and would really like to hunt with that kind of dog.one that could make noise but never given a chance. Just believe there is a cross to be made in the black dog world to make a positive effect not just saying it but for it to happen and worry about who gets credit for it needs to stop history will be made when were gone what we going to be known for in our breed? We had the decent dogs but never got it right or could never win big much?

__________________
Mike McKinney

I use Sunfire lights

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Glenmont,Ohio
Posts: 1185

quote:

---

Originally posted by gfults
Rebel is a nice hound thru and thru! Can I take any credit for helping in that process??

---

__________________
Get deep or Get Beat!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged