Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

I'm wondering if "where we went wrong" is posting each dogs score from each night on the web? Seems like it's created a lot of confusion, for some. Bottom line is the same procedures used for the past umteen years were also used this past weekend.

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I think Shreveport will weed out the riff raff easy enough. Like I've always said, they are much easier to find when they are there. Apparently Sweat It is pretty darn accurate and isn't afraid of the dark. May need a pup out of him I'm thinking. Look at what a pup out of him done at autumn oaks.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Knoxville Tn
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I just want to say thanks to the UKC and Allen for all the updates this week. I also don't see how the ties could be broken any better.

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I think what's confusing so many is calling it a two night hunt. Some have a different definition of a two night hunt than others. Like the breed associations combine all nights of the breed hunts to determine high scoring dog of breed for that hunt. It's only a two night hunt for the ones with two cast wins and ones that get scratched.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I'm wondering if "where we went wrong" is posting each dogs score from each night on the web? Seems like it's created a lot of confusion, for some. Bottom line is the same procedures used for the past umteen years were also used this past weekend.

---

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
It's not that the scores were posted, it's one of two things.....

1. Folks don't understand that a cast win is more important than a good score. UKC quit placing dogs according to non-cast winning scores several years ago. A score of 400+ that does not win the cast is a losing score...you lost! If another dog in the cast has 1/2 a point more than you....YOU LOST....Simple as that.

2. Despite the fact that the same procedures have been used for the past umteen years....a few folk don't agree with the procedure and think they have a better way of advancing dogs. Seems to me that they don't understand that the zones are designed to first to reward and advance the consistent cast winning dog, then to reward the dogs with the highest cast winning score. You have two nights to earn your way into the finals by winning casts

I for one enjoyed the rapid fire updates and the extra effort that it took to bring us up to the minute, blow by blow, status updates...thanks for spending your weekend in the office!

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

UKC did an outstanding job of getting scores and results up in a timely manner.

I think folks understand the rules and how dogs advance, just fine.

We're just discussing a way to improve and advance better dogs. Is that a problem?

I'll give you a scenario.

Here's a cast from Fri. night:
Dog A: 150-
Dog B: 100+
Dog C:275+ CW

On Sat. night these same 3 dogs draw to 3 different casts.
Dog A: 400+ CW
Dog B: 375+ CW
Dog C: 225+ (not a cast winner)

All 3 dogs are single night cast winners. Dogs A&B make the cut and advance. Dog C does not.

According to current rules, these dogs are placed, A, B, and C. Dog C is ranked the lesser of the 3 even though he beat those other 2 dogs in head to head competition. If you want to reward the consistent dog, then please point out which of these 3 is more consistent? Please tell me which one you think is the best dog?

I'm not complaining about anything from this year and I'm not suggesting the rules need to be changed just because I don't have a better idea. I'm just saying take your blinders off and think about it. There's always a better way to do something....

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 2315

quote:

---

Originally posted by John D
UKC did an outstanding job of getting scores and results up in a timely manner.

I think folks understand the rules and how dogs advance, just fine.

We're just discussing a way to improve and advance better dogs. Is that a problem?

I'll give you a scenario.

Here's a cast from Fri. night:
Dog A: 150-
Dog B: 100+
Dog C:275+ CW

On Sat. night these same 3 dogs draw to 3 different casts.
Dog A: 400+ CW
Dog B: 375+ CW
Dog C: 225+ (not a cast winner)

All 3 dogs are single night cast winners. Dogs A&B make the cut and advance. Dog C does not.

According to current rules, these dogs are placed, A, B, and C. Dog C is ranked the lesser of the 3 even though he beat those other 2 dogs in head to head competition. If you want to reward the consistent dog, then please point out which of these 3 is more consistent? Please tell me which one you think is the best dog?

I'm not complaining about anything from this year and I'm not suggesting the rules need to be changed just because I don't have a better idea. I'm just saying take your blinders off and think about it. There's always a better way to do something....

---

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 2315

quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I'm wondering if "where we went wrong" is posting each dogs score from each night on the web? Seems like it's created a lot of confusion, for some. Bottom line is the same procedures used for the past umteen years were also used this past weekend.

---

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Not disgruntled at all. Just that it seems by posting the scores each night it created a lot of confusion as to how dogs are actually placed. I also don't have any problem with discussing better ways to do things. Matter of fact, just the opposite - we encourage those ideas.

On the flip side... I can see when the scores from both nights are posted on the final placements it could easily "look" like sometimes the non-cast winning score played a part.

There was one placement where the non cast win came into play this year. That was in Zone 7 where two dogs were deadlocked in anunbreakable tie. In that case it does revert back to the non-cast win score. Can't recall any other time in the past 8 years where it came down to that.

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Why would you combine scores for both nights to place a dog that only wins one cast here is an example as to what could happen with that idea.

dog A
Friday night comes in with 675+ non cast winner
cast winner comes in with 975+
Saturday night comes in with +50 cast winner
Total points 725+

Dog B
Friday night comes in with 225+ non cast winner
cast winner comes in with 250+
Saturday night comes in with 500+ cast winner
total points 775+

You believe dog A should advance instead of dog B? You think that is more fair? Explain why this in your opinion would be more fair.

Sorry forgot he was cast winner Sat.

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Last edited by Bob Hennessey on 09-17-2012 at 09:40 PM

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 2315

Did dog B win a cast ???? If not he won nothing..... Non cast winning scores mean nothing

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1022

I'll give you a scenario.

Here's a cast from Fri. night:
Dog A: 150-
Dog B: 100+
Dog C:275+ CW

On Sat. night these same 3 dogs draw to 3 different casts.
Dog A: 400+ CW
Dog B: 375+ CW
Dog C: 225+ (not a cast winner)

All 3 dogs are single night cast winners. Dogs A&B make the cut and advance. Dog C does not.

According to current rules, these dogs are placed, A, B, and C. Dog C is ranked the lesser of the 3 even though he beat those other 2 dogs in head to head competition. If you want to reward the consistent dog, then please point out which of these 3 is more consistent? Please tell me which one you think is the best dog?

I'm not complaining about anything from this year and I'm not suggesting the rules need to be changed just because I don't have a better idea. I'm just saying take your blinders off and think about it. There's always a better way to do something....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly what happen to me one year won my cast on two coon 400+ friday. Next night only treed one coon didn't win my cast. The three dogs I beat Friday all got in to coon and came in with good scores and all went to the finals.If you don't live around the zones you better hope you draw a good guide or you don't have a chance of going anywhere.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
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I guess I look at it like a double elimination softball tournament. In order to "advance" your best chance is to win the game you are playing.

It really doesn't matter if you score 10 runs in one game, if the team you were playing scores 11 runs. You lost that game. You continue playing in the tourney once you lose, but you get put in the "loser" bracket. Play until you lose twice.

There have been questions about why play two nights? Cause you need to either be in the winner's bracket or the losers bracket....eventually the winner's bracket plays the loser bracket, and you can have an overall winner of the tourney that comes from the "loser" bracket.

The current method of tie breaking sure beats the dreaded "coin flip" that was recently deployed at one of the Autumn Oaks mini slam events......

I'm not sure that I buy the argument that a dog that consistently scores plus points (but gets beat) is a better dog. We simply don't know how the dog came about those points. In the example given by John D, there are a thousand different possibilities why Dog C scored higher on Friday night, none of which lead us to an absolute conclusion that dog C is a "better" dog.

I agree that there may be a "better way", but I'm not sure that taking into consideration non-cast winning scores is a viable measure of the consistency of a dog.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

---

Originally posted by jawscardodger

Exactly what happen to me one year won my cast on two coon 400+ friday. Next night only treed one coon didn't win my cast. The three dogs I beat Friday all got in to coon and came in with good scores and all went to the finals.If you don't live around the zones you better hope you draw a good guide or you don't have a chance of going anywhere.

---

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Joe Newlin
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

You know, for as long as I can remember the rulles for the zones have been the same except 1. Used to, the dog had to hunt in the zone the owner ( or owner whose address was listed with UKC) lived in. They changed it where the hunters could choose which zone they went to.

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Registered: Aug 2003
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Posts: 1155

RULES HAVE BEEN THIS WAY A LONG TIME. THE ONLY CHANGES I SEEN WERE WHEN DOGS WERE EXACTLY TIED THIS TIME THEY DID GO BACK TO PREVIOUS NIGHT!!

I THINK I PLACED 25TH, I HAD 200 PLUS AND 125 CIRCLE ON THE NIGHT I WON!!

THE NEXT NIGHT I HAD 375 CIRCLE IT DOES NOT COUNT FOR OR AGAINST ME AND NEVER HAS.

JUDD, YALL HAD 200 PLUS AND ON THAT NIGHT WHAT ELSE YOU HAVE?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
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Its a really good, fair system. It may not be perfect but its close. Win your cast and you don't have to worry about anything else. If you don't win 1 night, you might still have a chance but now you put yourself at the mercy of what other dogs, even dogs you beat, do.

I sure like all the results and scores posted. Its a treasure trove of info...

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Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 174

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Seeker
Why would you combine scores for both nights to place a dog that only wins one cast here is an example as to what could happen with that idea.

dog A
Friday night comes in with 675+ non cast winner
cast winner comes in with 975+
Saturday night comes in with +50 cast winner
Total points 725+

Dog B
Friday night comes in with 225+ non cast winner
cast winner comes in with 250+
Saturday night comes in with 500+ cast winner
total points 775+

You believe dog A should advance instead of dog B? You think that is more fair? Explain why this in your opinion would be more fair.

Sorry forgot he was cast winner Sat.

---

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On my post I forgot cast winner Sat. Night. Please reread my post.

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Registered: Sep 2012
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The way i look at it is that some cast winners advance and others that win a cast doesn't. What makes thecast winner with a higher score better than the next cast winner with a lesser score hunting different spots against different competition? Is that really fair to all involved? And you say different guides don't make any difference?

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Registered: Sep 2007
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i like how it is done now... all except in a single cast win.... on a single cast win i think the first tie breaker should be the other nights cast.... doesnt make me right and them wrong just think it would be a better way to have the better dog advance and also the more consistant dog

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Do they or do they not combine the scores to determine a breed champion still? I'm just saying this is what threw me off of how dogs advanced . I haven't been involved with the World Hunt format since they have set up zones . Like I said ,I'm a rookie at this particular format. I'm not saying it's right or wrong,that I just don't agree with it is all. As Americans I thought we had the freedom of speech and opinions. I'm sure UKC reads these with open minds with possibilities of improving on what they already have or at least get a concensus on what the general membership prefers.

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Last edited by down and out on 09-17-2012 at 10:02 PM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

quote:

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Originally posted by down and out
Do they or do they not combine the scores to determine a breed champion still? I'm just saying this is what threw me off of how dogs advanced . I haven't been involved with the World Hunt format since they have set up zones . Like I said ,I'm a rookie at this particular format. I'm not saying it's right or wrong,that I just don't agree with it is all. As Americans I thought we had the freedom of speech and opinions. I'm sure UKC reads these with open minds with possibilities of improving on what they already have or at least get a concensus on what the general membership prefers.

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All breed winners are determined via their scores at the Finals. Scores are not combined. It's simply the dog that advances the furtherst within its respective breed. The only way scores at the Zonesa are considered is in the event the breed is not represented at the Finals. And yes, always looking to improve. Absolutley. Come on down to the finals this weekend. You're not that far from it.

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Registered: Apr 2005
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I thought it was nice to see the scores posted each night, I bet from all this bitching that we don't get the opportunity to see them next year.

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