Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

quote:

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Originally posted by KAYLA090205
This debate will never be settled... but since I have a free moment here is my two cents....

Form is directly relation to function and vice versa.

I don't think it's fair to compare an "AKC type" Black & Tan to a "UKC type". Anyone with eyes can see the obvious differences and yes there are dual registered dogs that win both ways but for the vast majority they could almost be two different breeds. Same with Labradors and Poodles. The majority of AKC show bred Labradors could not hold up to seasons of hunting and field trials due to the bone structure of their head has been so changed by breeding for the "hyped type show ring dog" they can no longer fit a goose in their mouth. How sad when they are a RETRIEVER ?? Our Lab is a UKC show champion, a UKC Hunting Retriever Champion, and passes to his AKC Junior Hunter title. He has CORRECT WORKING FORM, does his job well, and that is what I, as an owner/handler/breeder strive for.

I now turn my attention to my hounds. They are DUAL bred. A review of their 4 generation pedigrees will reveal a bloodline of both show and hunt titled hounds. They have a high level of conformation combined with natural game instinct, intelligence, and trainability. If they don't make the grade on all four, I don't feed them and I sure don't breed them.

I'm personally not a competition hunter due to the few I participated in left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth and a couple scars on my dog. Stuff happens, I won't condem or uphold an entire sport based on my personal experience. I enjoy pleasure hunting and yes, I have friends that will handle my dogs in hunts (once I deem my dogs ready) because they enjoy them. I enjoy the shows (bench and conformation) water races, field trials, weight pulls, dock jumping, and rally obedience. Our dogs do all of the above and do it well. We train for a variety of events and travel a lot of miles BECAUSE WE ENJOY IT.

I feel any working breed of dog (and yes, especially a hound) should demonstarte the natural ability and desire to do the work they were bred to do. But there is no reason they should not have proper conformation to go along with it. Some breeders will breed for high level hunt, some for high level show, some for dual dogs (and oh how I respect you) but at our house we breed for multi purpose dogs

Better the breed and respect your fellow competitors.

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 187

I think I made it a specific point when discussing Labradors that I DO NOT approve of the fads that pass through AKC. AKC is infamous for "typing" a breed, vs judging to a breed standard. The majority of AKC breeders breed for show homes/pet homes. I don't think the difference can be truely understood unless you've been around that AKC ring and then around the UKC ring. It is a difference mentality and a different ballgame. There are a lot more true dual purpose competitors and breeders in UKC vs AKC. I'm NOT saying you don't have breeders that do both and pack a dog that can win in both venues, we've all seen it. I'm talking about the vast majority. UKC dual coonhound fanciers are trying their best to keep breeds from becoming a extreme fad in AKC, like the B&T has become.

I also don't think its fair to lump owners/handlers/breeders/and fanciers together all as "show people" if your discussing AKC vs UKC. AKC show dogs are a machine. They know crate, travel, show. A lot are professionally handled, trained, and owned by a variety of different individuals. No, not each and every dog, but the true circuit dogs live that life. My hounds are rotated indoors as well as kennel kept. They hunt (YES, TRUELY HUNT) field trial, swim daily, and show. & in the case of our Catahoula, who is show titled, she also works stock. It therefore offends me slightly to be called a "show person" in THAT sense due to the fact my dogs are glad to see me come home at the end of the day instead of being indifferent to who is holding their show lead in a ring.

I'm a "show person" and a "field person/hunter" for coonhounds, labradors, and catahoulas. And guess what ? This debate is in every breed. You can blame the "show people" all day long for creating a differential due to breeding only for conformation, but play Devil's advocate and you can blame the "field people" for breeding only for certain field qualities with no regards to conformation.

The entire point of my previous post was, at my house, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. You work or your sent packing, you meet my high level of conformational standard or your sent packing. That's my breeding philosophy all day long and prob the reason we don't raise many litters.

And yes, I call my dog's breeding dual purpose due to the fact that his grandsire on one side is a WRLDSHOWCH and his gradsire on the other side is dual grand and the breed's #1 Historical Reproducer. If a dog preforms in the ring and in the woods that, to me, is dual purpose. I don't know what else you'd ask of them ?

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*NALC Hi-Point Dog & Reserve Hi-Point Dog of Trial Winner*

URO1 UWP GRCH INT CH Warrior River's Gap Creek Piper, CGC

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

Pat each other on the back all ya want, but answer my simple question. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS SUCH A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AKC. DOGS AND THE UKC. DOGS. If your honest your answer will make my point, which is breeding a performance breed based on appearance will destroy their usefullness.

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Registered: Dec 2011
Location: juniata county pa
Posts: 640

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
You show folks just dont get it. WHY do you think theres a difference between the UKC and AKC black and tans? The reason is because those AKC. mutts have been bred based on appearance instead of performance,DUH.
And its funny how every litter of show bred puppies is advertised as "DUAL PURPOSE" Gimme a break, what is the other purpose? Guard dog , retriever? probably about the same odds as them ever bein a coondog. Do they tell the young inexperienced hunter that looks at those pups how slim the odds are that that pretty puppy will grow up to do anything other than look nice... NOPE they call them DUAL PURPOSE.

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 187

Thank you Weinstock Hounds

Can't wait to see your "kids" do rally. The fun stuff really rocks !

Chaos is UKC's first UWP (United Weight Puller) titled Redbone and first Redbone to be awarded a UKC Total Dog award. I'm EXTREMELY proud of my boy ! We also treed four coons with him and our 11 month old female Medusa (who is a CCH CH) Saturday night. He is coming on extremely strong in the woods and we're really hoping to NTCH him early next year We're going to the APBT Nationals in MI in Oct so our dogs will have a chance to show (it's 5 all breed shows) weight pull, rally, and lure course. We're staying a couple extra days with some friends in OH too so we can hunt some during kill season on these big Northern coons I've been hearing so much about instead of these little ridge running critters we have in our part of AL !!!

Bottom line in my book..... Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But performance indicates what the animal actually is. That's our DUAL PURPOSE motto to live by and that's why we strive for, breed for, and promote the type of dog we do.... A CONFORMATIONALLY CORRECT WORKING DOG.

So yes I have answered your "simple question" in my previous posts. I DO NOT agree with the fads and typing of AKC. The seperation of the AKC/UKC B&T SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED. But it was not true dual purpose coonhound fanciers who created the great divide. UKC dual purpose coonhound people are TRYING TO HAVE THE OTHER COONHOUND BREEDS NOT GO THAT WAY. Best of luck in your HTX title work, that is another program I support and admire.

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~ Warrior River Kennels ~

The Coonhounds...

BIMBS MRBIMBS NITECH GRWCH GRFCH UWPO UWPCHX AP1 VPN CGRCH GRCH INT CH AKC CSG ACHA CH PR' Disaster N the Making HTX SPOT

MBIMBS PTN URO1 UWP CGRCH GRCH IABCA BIS INT CH NAT CH HNR CH AKC CSG ICKC INT CH PR' Kayla's TreeRizin Hot Nite Roxy, CGC TDI

RBIMBS CGRCH GRWCH GRFCH GRCH INT CH AKC CCH PR' Warrior River Disaster Awakened

BIMBS UWP CGRCH CH AKC CGCH PR' Warrior River's My Disaster

BIMBS RBIMBS CCH PR' Warrior River Disaster Divided

RBIMBS GRFCH CGRCH GRCH AKC CSG PR' Warrior River Medusa HTX

NITECH WCH GRFCH CGRCH CH AKC CSG PR' Rocky Hollow Rambo HTX

UWP CCH GRCH INT CH AKC CCH PR' Warrior River Karma N Effect

GRWCH CA GRFCH CCH CH PR' Warrior River No Rest For The Wicked

PR' Warrior River Unseen Disaster

The Catahoulas...

RATI PTN CA TRCH URO1 UWP RBIS GRCH NALC ComboCh NKC FCH BCH Cross Check's Warrior River Rimfire, CGCA SPOT CAL1
*NALC Hi-Point Dog & Reserve Hi-Point Dog of Trial Winner*

URO1 UWP GRCH INT CH Warrior River's Gap Creek Piper, CGC

BIS RBIS BISS UWP CA GRCH ICKC BIS NKC WRLDBSHWCH BCH FCH TRCH Warrior River Khaleesi

UWP CA UNJ RATI CH Warrior River Talon

CH Warrior River's 4N Mako

We're all about working dogs !!
www.warriorriverkennels.com

Last edited by KAYLA090205 on 07-18-2012 at 10:42 PM

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

quote:

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Originally posted by walker1978
im just wonding what your dogs are breed for, so far from what i see you are good at telling other people they are wrong for what they beleave. so why dont you tell us what your dogs look like or hunt like so we can tell you your thinking about it all wrong. i beleave that person is breed for what a person should be breeding for and more people should.

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Location: juniata county pa
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quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Mine are bred to tree coon and come from a long line of coon treers. Right now im pushing a NTCH. walker male with 2 wins for his HTX title. Hes a real good lookin hound but thats way down on my list of priorities. I have nothing against folks showing their dogs, i do think its wrong to breed them based on their looks. Thats just my opinion and last i checked thats what this board is for.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Mine are bred to tree coon and come from a long line of coon treers. Right now im pushing a NTCH. walker male with 2 wins for his HTX title. Hes a real good lookin hound but thats way down on my list of priorities. I have nothing against folks showing their dogs, i do think its wrong to breed them based on their looks. Thats just my opinion and last i checked thats what this board is for.

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Registered: Jul 2011
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 214

If we all had to show what we hunt and hunt what we show we would all figure out who has dual purpose hounds. It's not fair for a hound that gets hunted to stand on a bench next to a dog that gets a work out in a pond. Most hunters that I know like and hunt a well built hound. If it's not built descent odds are it won't be able to last hours of punishment on rough terrain night after night. When you look at the stud ads (hunting stock) most have a descent title as far as bench shows go. In my eyes that is dual purpose. Not trying to disrespect anyone, i for dam$ sure don't have the prettiest hounds. But they are built good, they can hunt longer than me and I know for a fact they are not the worst coondogs. Good luck to all!!

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Registered: Apr 2006
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so how long has it been since a walker dog won the world show
10-15 yrs

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 99

quote:

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Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
so how long has it been since a walker dog won the world show
10-15 yrs

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 99

quote:

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Originally posted by Lee Currens Jr.
if 5-7 of the breeds have never won a world ch or so long ago
nobody can remember who really cares what they do with them?

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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: So. IL
Posts: 209

U go !!!!!!

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Quite showman U never know who might be listening>

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Location: michigan
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Guys I've set at many UKC World Championships and watched & applauded as the Nite Hunt Placements were handed out. Some looked tired out, scratched up, sore footed and dirty but as a whole they were for the most part a bunch of good looking dogs . The difference was the owners brought them there to hunt and the show people came to show. Nobody gave the dog a vote in which they wanted to do, they were trained to do what the owner wanted. Some dogs won't hunt & some won't show and some are better at one than the other. If you're going to run across the country trying to win something you better bring one that's good at what you want to win. Some go way early to a hunt because they think their dog needs to get use to the country, hire guides to get them in coon, whatever it takes that might help. I train mine to show, hunt'em, swim'em, whatever it takes to be in shape, give'em a bath and trim there nails.
You do what it takes to win what you want to win. The dog don't care which it is, they just try to do what you want from them.

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Registered: Nov 2009
Location: Lavonia Ga
Posts: 335

I don't show. But i would love to. Its just every one of my dogs are ugly as homemade sin. Lol. Back in the day i bought a dog just to show with and i couldnt even win then. Now that i think about it, maybe i just dont know what I'm doing. I would love to be able to show my dogs at big events but i cant even wib agaunst myself. Just sayin

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: statesville,nc
Posts: 364

there you go i agree

quote:

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Originally posted by Adam Hibbs
If we all had to show what we hunt and hunt what we show we would all figure out who has dual purpose hounds. It's not fair for a hound that gets hunted to stand on a bench next to a dog that gets a work out in a pond. Most hunters that I know like and hunt a well built hound. If it's not built descent odds are it won't be able to last hours of punishment on rough terrain night after night. When you look at the stud ads (hunting stock) most have a descent title as far as bench shows go. In my eyes that is dual purpose. Not trying to disrespect anyone, i for dam$ sure don't have the prettiest hounds. But they are built good, they can hunt longer than me and I know for a fact they are not the worst coondogs. Good luck to all!!

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