Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

TK is the official ruling on this. We don't have the authority to disagree with him. What UKC says goes, it's not up to us.

As I said in my origional post I don't like the fact that the dog has that loophole, but going by what the rules ACTUALLY SAY you CAN NOT score the dogs strike points period until he ends up on a different tree. That's what the rules say, and that's what UKC says.

To score it any other way we will need a rule change, an Advisor or some authority from UKC as there is no other way to interpret the rule as it is written. It's plainly stated that you can not score a shut out dogs strike points unless it trees on a different tree, can't score them plus or minus, they just don't exist.

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Last edited by Rip on 10-15-2006 at 11:01 PM

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Like some one else mentioned, Todd's response contradicts itself all in the same response. Todd tells us the dog cannot be plussed or minused because the dog was shutout on strike and can only be scored if it trees on a separate tree. but turns around in the same paragraph and says the dog can be plussed for a coon caught on the ground. A coon caught on the ground is absolutely not a coon treed. So which is it? Can you score a shutout dog that didn't tree on a separate tree or can't you? The answer: you can't unless Todd says so.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Well Jim, that is correct since Todd is the official interpreter of the rules.

In this case he is saying that the dog ended a different track, much the same as we say a place of refuge can be scored a tree if you call your dog treed, but you don't have to call your dog treed and only the strike points are eligible. A hole in the ground isn't a tree, but it acts as a tree if you call your dog treed.

Catching a coon on the ground isn't a tree, but in the instance of a dog shut out it counts as him treeing a different coon, but he still can't get tree points.

Why? Because that's the official UKC interpretation LOL.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Just up the road a piece.
Posts: 1436

pile keeps getting deeper and deeper!!

Whatch out!! ......You almost stepped in it !!

Are you really gonna start a new set of strike points when casting dogs into a trailing dog or give them next available position. And then when all the dogs quit and come in are you going to minus some and delete others. HHhhmmm. I've seen a couple guys almost come to blows before in a Nite Hunt but this
is going to require bringing your gloves to the woods.

No wonder Gayle Flowers asked for forgivness for doing it wrong for 45 years. Heck he was just trying to avoid a fight/L0L!!

I 'm glad I know nothing about this coonhuntin thing!! Sounds dangerous!

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How official is it Rip? I haven't seen it in the Advisor book or coulmn. The "coon caught on ground" exception isn't in the rulebook. This forum is the only place we can find the exception. Does that make it "official"?
If they want to make the rules right here on this message board, they would have been way ahead to have made the official Kellem ruling that the shutout ends when the dog that did the shutting out is scored on his tree. Why? Because nearly every judge on the planet has been DOING IT THAT WAY FOREVER!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Well I haven't been doing it that way and I didn't need Todd to tell me about it. The only new thing that TK has said on here was about the coon caught on the gound. I have known you can't score a dogs strike that was shut out for years and have always scored it that way. Elvis said he has too.

It's in black and white and to minus a dogs strike when it plainly says a dog can't be scored its strike unless it trees on a different tree would be cheating IF you know better.

Now I would have never scored the coon caught on the ground plus either as I would have used the same rule to say it couldn't be plussed, but now that TK has said it counts then from now on that's the way I will score it.

For the record I agree with you that once the tree is scored then common sense says the strike points should be eligible for scoring, but that's not the way the rule is written. I guess the writers of the rule were worried that the slow dog would still be on the same track and end up at the scored tree or something???? Either way it wouldn't have mattered as you can't score a tree twice anyway so that shouldn't have entered into their thinking.

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Last edited by Rip on 10-15-2006 at 11:19 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: AUBURN, IN.
Posts: 1706

****E---SHETI ---SEHTE-----you all got me so screw up I can't even spell **** now ----lol lol lol lol lol

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Registered: Aug 2004
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Jeff H. You tell me what you would do according to the new information relayed on this thread. Again if dog A's strike cannot be scored until he makes a tree what do you then do with the dogs being re-cast?? I would have and have been putting them in for next available for the last twenty seven or some odd years.
The fact that certain people twist this to their advantage is the major problem with the nite hunts. In my mind there isn't even a question here, it's common sense and that doesn't seem to be very common anymore.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Just up the road a piece.
Posts: 1436

Heck I'm so cornfused I don't know. But I would guess that I would assign next available position . I wasn't trying to twist anything and if I misunderstood you I apoligize. I thought you were advocating starting a new set of strike points for the dogs being recast . I would think you would have to give them next available or 25 as called for in rule 4e and rule 11 just like you and I have both been doing in the past, but heck, 4e also says that a dog that quits a trail and comes in will recieve minus points on the strike but now we learn that thats not always the case .

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Registered: Aug 2004
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I really can't justify giving this much more time but here goes. I have always awarded next available and will continue to do so. With this being said, over the years there have been numerous circumstances that have been "interpreted" for me. Steve Fielder told me one night at the zone quarterfinals that a dog on the leash is treated the same as a dog that is treed on a tree . I don't agree with that either. I could go on and on but this is one of the reasons that I don't attend many events anymore. I just don't want to deal with the aggrevation of not having a clear cut set of rules. Way too many gray areas for me.

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Moncks Corner, South Carolina
Posts: 1814

So, for the last 16 years every cast I've been on where this situation has occurred has scored it wrong. Glad to know that none of us know what we're doing (except Elvis and Rip) So, I guess with this rule in place the cast could also call time out and let the owner catch his dog without receiving minus points. I can think of several times where that would have helped, but that's the only positive I see.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

quote:

---

Originally posted by K. Singletary
every cast I've been on where this situation has occurred has scored it wrong.

---

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Last edited by John D on 10-16-2006 at 02:48 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Underwood in.
Posts: 2312

I see nothing wrong with the Rule but I dont Agree with the Interpretation Why reward my dog for backtracking Or quitting the track by deleteing his points I know it will be two yrs before the rule can be changed But how long does it take to change Interpretation.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2768

I thought Gingerich was in charge of this stuff?

How many hunts has Kellam been in?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Underwood in.
Posts: 2312

It doesn't matter how many hunts he has been in I am sure he has been Involved in more Rule question's than anyone on this board.

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Registered: Aug 2006
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Posts: 5

Whats the difference. There are lots of rules that conflict.

If a dog comes into a tree after a cast arives, he gets a get out of jail free card on off game or anything else other than a coon seen.

Tell me that dog didnt quit his track to come to that tree. He had 5+ minutes to catch up.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2768

You are right but i have seen "official answers" given that were dead wrong and later changed.I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful,but i do feel there is no substitute for experience in the woods...and lots of it.

I thought that's why Allen was hired.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Four pages of discussion! Sorry, but I was out of the office for a few days. When I get a minute, I'll check out all the hoopla and possibly offer a response.

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Registered: Oct 2003
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Posts: 211

Todd; That has got to be the most bone-headed rule i EVER heard, if that dog is not minussed. You have got to be kidding. Oh well, another reason i think some things are major league and this would have to be t-ball in my opinion. Alan, bale him out on this one.

merlin

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

6g suggests that the ONLY time you can delete his strike is if he ends up on the same tree he was shut out on. The sole purpose of that rule was to circumvent this type of discussion. However, they saw fit to still leave 3d in the book, which is obsolete and contradictory to 6g. I think Todd has dug Allen a big hole...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Just up the road a piece.
Posts: 1436

I hope you are meaning 4e rather than 6g.

Otherwise I'm afraid you might be toying with a scratch here for drinking way too much !!/LOL!!

Just kidding!!

I agree with you . I think Allen has some work to do and Todd is going to owe him for this one !! BIG TIME

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Jeff H., I think Darrell was referring to 5(g) rather than 4(e) or 6(g).

I'll be honest, personally, I am/was with the majority on this. I remember when this has come up in the past (before I worked at UKC) but was under the impression with the addition of deleted points that 5(g) did in fact clarify any such situation. And that would be that a dog(s) shut out on strike would not be eligible for strike points (plus or minus) if they did in fact tree on the tree with the dog that shut them out. Otherwise, the dog(s) are eligible for strike points in any other situation??? Guess, I was wrong and it wouldn't be the first time but.....hmmmm. Doesn't seem right. If the rule needs changed to be interpreted so that dog(s) are responsible for their strike points unless they tree on the tree they were shut out on - then I'm on board! Sounds like I may need a little refresher course on 3(d)!

I'm with Mr. Flowers, I also apologize for any dogs I may have minused in the past! In hunting nite hunts for 45 years, I hate to think how many dogs/handlers Gayle may have done wrong! lol!

TK is out hunting this week.......again. But we'll discuss it when he comes back. I might lose this one but I can dang sure make a few few good arguments!

You know guys, this is no different than any other rule or official interpretation that we might not agree with, until it changes, that's what we have to go with - myself included.

Last edited by Allen / UKC on 10-17-2006 at 01:24 PM

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

Allen,

If this is the official ruling, that's what I will do. Gonna have a hard time selling it to any MOH that's doesn't get on here. When the formal complaints come in, Kellem better back me. lol

Actually I cant remember the last time the dog (s) shut out didn't tree on the same tree, get split close by, or trail on and tree.

This wont be the first ruling or rule I disagree with. It wont be the last. It seems funny that until a few days ago, 99% of us were doing it the same way. Wrong.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

LarryPoe,

Yes, TK's ruling is the way it stands unless noted otherwise in Official writing such as The Advisor Column in Coonhound Bloodlines.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

i agree its not the way the rule was intended to work,but i also know that tk's interpretation has been the same for a very long time.
if you read the rule,its very clear and to the point that you can not score those underlined strike points unless the dog trees on a seperate tree.
heck,dont jump on tk,thats the way the rule reads.if you dont like it,change the way it reads.

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