Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Augusta,Ks
Posts: 145

Oakridge ,you are right.It is the breeders right to ask what they want for a pup and we should be breeding good females to good males.Brood females are one of the main reasons so many hounds need to be culled.People just can't get around the idea that the female gives more to the pup then the male.I would also sure as heck put more effort in a $1000 pup then a $300 pup,but I will never buy a $1000 pup.I guess I am just on the other side of it.The dog I am hunting now is out of Backwater Pearl(last years PKC "breeder of the year" female)and Nocturnal Nitro,and I bought this pup for a very reasonable price.I just think people are fooling themselves if they think paying $1000 for a pup is going to guarantee that they are going to get a good dog.I think the average coonhunter is better off buying a started dog if they want to spend a $1000.I truly believe that there alot of good pups being sold out there for $300 and less,and just as many of them end up in the winners circle as the $1000 ones.Like many times when I get into these "conversations" on these boards(UKC mainly) I end up writing somethings I later regret.Sorry for the toes I stepped on and I am through with this....Good hunting...Mick

__________________
Mick McLaughlin
Thunder Road Kennels
Augusta,Ks
Cell 316-518-0596

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 705

I did some quick math here, I am new at this and have never raised pups, but I am planning to sometime in the future. Here is what I figured.
$300.00 stud fee (average, some higher, a few less)
$75.00 Shot's, 25 count purchased mail order from a reputable company, shipped 2 day in proper packaging.
$80.00, diamond puppy food, 20.00 for a 40# bag, one a month for 4 months.
$30.00 good all around wormer from feed store(could be more, but also could be less)

Altogether that is $485.00, figure an average of 8 pups, that's $60.00 a pup, less for more pups, more for fewer pups. Now of course there are potential complications involved, but most of the cost for those who are saying they have $250+ per pup, are the vets time. If someone wants to do that, great, but don't complain about pup prices being cheap; because someone else is not paying the vets time to increase their profit. Now don't get me wrong, I am not in it to make money. When I breed my female, I will have 4 pups that I have to give to the man I got my female from, after that, I will get what I can from the pups. I do agree with the thought that brood females are bad. The greatest stud in the world is not going to consistantly overcome a worthless dam.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

---

Originally posted by newhunter
I did some quick math here, I am new at this and have never raised pups, but I am planning to sometime in the future. Here is what I figured.
$300.00 stud fee (average, some higher, a few less)
$75.00 Shot's, 25 count purchased mail order from a reputable company, shipped 2 day in proper packaging.
$80.00, diamond puppy food, 20.00 for a 40# bag, one a month for 4 months.
$30.00 good all around wormer from feed store(could be more, but also could be less)

Altogether that is $485.00, figure an average of 8 pups, that's $60.00 a pup, less for more pups, more for fewer pups. Now of course there are potential complications involved, but most of the cost for those who are saying they have $250+ per pup, are the vets time. If someone wants to do that, great, but don't complain about pup prices being cheap; because someone else is not paying the vets time to increase their profit. Now don't get me wrong, I am not in it to make money. When I breed my female, I will have 4 pups that I have to give to the man I got my female from, after that, I will get what I can from the pups. I do agree with the thought that brood females are bad. The greatest stud in the world is not going to consistantly overcome a worthless dam.

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Palatka, Florida
Posts: 1014

Some really good comments being posted here.

newhunter,
A couple of other expenses in the senario I originally posted might be...

Registration in 2 or more KCs, performance fees
Travelling 600 miles one way, motel room, 1or 2 nights and 600 miles back.

Time is also an expense to consider.

The bottom line is...People that know the female and the stud's reputation are more apt to pay a higher price for a pup, in hopes of getting the next great hound.

Good luck to all pup owners, regardless of what you paid for it.

__________________
My name is Leon Silcox and I wrote this message.

Last edited by coondogless on 05-03-2005 at 09:41 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

---

Originally posted by kscooner
Oakridge ,you are right.It is the breeders right to ask what they want for a pup and we should be breeding good females to good males.Brood females are one of the main reasons so many hounds need to be culled.People just can't get around the idea that the female gives more to the pup then the male.I would also sure as heck put more effort in a $1000 pup then a $300 pup,but I will never buy a $1000 pup.I guess I am just on the other side of it.The dog I am hunting now is out of Backwater Pearl(last years PKC "breeder of the year" female)and Nocturnal Nitro,and I bought this pup for a very reasonable price.I just think people are fooling themselves if they think paying $1000 for a pup is going to guarantee that they are going to get a good dog.I think the average coonhunter is better off buying a started dog if they want to spend a $1000.I truly believe that there alot of good pups being sold out there for $300 and less,and just as many of them end up in the winners circle as the $1000 ones.Like many times when I get into these "conversations" on these boards(UKC mainly) I end up writing somethings I later regret.Sorry for the toes I stepped on and I am through with this....Good hunting...Mick

---

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Newhunter, if you don't take the pups to the vet then legally "you ain't doin it right" and it can come back to bite you if you happen to sell a pup to a jerk that decides to sue when he doesn't give vaccines and the pup dies. See you can't legally prove he wasn't already sick, and unless a vet does the vaccinations they won't stand up in court either in most states so the dog will be assumed to be unvaccinated.

See the extra for the vet bill ain't cause I can't do it, I am a student doctor and do those types of things every day. It's to give the buyer the assurance that someone that really knows what they are doing has checked the dogs and has also properly given the vaccinations. Also, even though I am a student doctor there are still things that I don't know about that a keen eyed vet can see early and save lots of trouble in the long run.

Thankfully I have never had any trouble selling my pups (I get 200 a piece for mine but only had 2 litters in my life, not a "breeder" just like to raise my own). I have also never sold a pup to a jerk like I mentioned, but all it takes is one time to have some idiot sue you and some liberal panty waist judge to give him everything you own. You get them vet checked legally and you are covered.

Like Oak Ridge already posted time and registration fees are expensive as well. Do it right and you have lots of time invested in them as well. PS, I doubt you will get 8 very often, most of the people I know get around 6 pups.

As for hard feelins, got none here. I was just pointing out that if you do it right it is expensive to raise pups up to 8 weeks of age. I could really care less if someone gives them away or sells them for a grand a piece, just clarifying that if done right folks selling them for 2 or 3 hundred a piece ain't makin no money.

I agree if you want to make money it is not the best reason, but I also say it's their right to do what they want.

I will never understand those greedy folks, and they will never understand why I take the time to do all I do for pups I raise only to loose money on them.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

We had another thread wherein some old boy wanted a broken good hound for some absurd price like $ 150 or $ 200. LOL $ 300 is a very reasonable price for a pup that has been cared for and has parents that are good to great (25 % of all hounds by some estimations) coonhounds.

I think that there is an element to the contention that $ 100 to $ 150 is fair that we have not discussed, i.e. " I got this good pup for this price because I am so good at negotiation- I'm just slick". It's just one-upmanship.

Just go buy the groceries for one week for your family.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 832

There is a guy in Paris, Tenn. Don't know much about him except that he breeds to top studs and is reputed to have good brood females. Sold pups at 8 weeks for years for $100. Now is getting $150. Has an add in mags for these pups. Always at St. Jude hunt with a load. Sold out and was gone EARLY on Saturday this year. Don't know how satisfied his customers are BUT he seems happy. Personally I have not heard a negative report on his pups.

Maybe he just considers it a public service.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 705

Oakridge, thanks for pointing out the things I missed, but I checked and liter registration in UKC would be $16.00 for 6 pups, I could not find PKC's fees, but I would assume it's about the same, so that adds around $30.00 to the equation. The 4 months I was figuring feed, was 2 for the mother (who you would have to feed anyway) and 2 for pups (of which you only have to feed them the last 3 weeks of the 8) but either way, I doubled the amount I figured to $160.00 for food, then added the $30.00 for litter registration changed my number of pups to 6 from 8 and it comes out to $100.00 a pup. As far as time, I don't add in my time; because for most of us, it's a hobby, we do it because we enjoy it. For those who figure it's a business, then like any other business starting, time is part of running the business, and you mark up the product to cover your time. Oakridege, I would agree that if you pay to permenently register the pup, and all the SS and performance fees, and keep them 'til they are 4 months old, I can see the cost per pup going up to the $285.00 that you say, but I contend that the majority of people selling pups don't do that, they wean them and try to get rid of them by 6 to 8 weeks, and liter register them only and it is up to the buyer to pay the permenant fees. Am I wrong on this?
Rip, I understand your point about getting sued, but if you guarentee the pups health for 2 weeks after you sell if, and refund the money to the buyer if the pup dies in that time, I can't see any judges making you pay through the nose, although there might be some liberal judge out there doing it. If this has happened to someone, it would be real intersting to hear about. I do appreciate the responses, because I am going to be raising some pups sometime, and I know there are costs I am not thinking about, but I like to see the numbers in black and white, that's just me. Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, I am trying to learn to educate myself. If what Rip says could happen, then I might just give my pups away. I have a friend who does that. I am sure he could get $200.00 a pup for his bear dogs (no papers), but he just gives them away to guys he hunts with; because its too much hassle. Of course, he only breeds when he wants pups so he don't have a bunch.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Marshall I.N.
Posts: 642

Yes the guy that has the litter has to pay the proformance fee and pay the super stake's up on each pup and by attaching no value to your time you do yourself a diservice as that you can rest assured that any outher time you pay for something the fella that made it includes his time in the price .

__________________
Chaney's Cooncreek Kennels
Driven by Tater Powered by Frosty
Home of Nitech Chaney's Cooncreek Tater
Chaney's cooncreek Song
Frosty blue fancy II
Chaney's Cooncreek Harley
Chaney's Cooncreek Frosty Heir
T.C.Cooncreek Bawl's Chigger
The only person a dog has to please is the guy that feeds him.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Newhunter,

No offense taken.

Here is how it breaks down. I have $13,000 invested in a stud dog and breeding age females that can all do the job the way that I want to reproduce.

I paid $850.00 to have the male super staked, and another $200.00 to have him nominated into the Performance Program. Sure, this way I save on stud fees, but between the price of the dog, and the performance programs, I have a stack of money invested in him.

I pay $35.00 for a brucellosis test monthly on my stud, if he is exposed to a female during that month. I also pay 35.00 for each female brucellosis test prior to breeding.

I pay for advertisement for both the stud, and the pups....at about $200.00 per month give or take a little. Some guys pay much more.

The female is fed and cared for during her pregnancy pretty much as she would be any other time. However, if I were not producing pups, she most likely would be somewhere else, in someone elses kennel, so I count those expenses. Let's keep in mind that I feed and care for her the other 10 months of the year as well. During the last couple weeks of her pregnancy the female is supplemented with vitamins and calcium to ensure that she is healthy and that the pups are healthy as well.

The litter registration for UKC is now $20.00, the PP litter nomination is $25.00 and the litter nomination for the Walker Futurity is $25.00. That is a check to UKC for $70.00 for puppy papers. PKC litter registration is 7.00 plus 3.00 per pup. SS fees are $42.00 per pup, so you have $45.00 per pup invested. AKC litter registration is a bargain at $20.00. That is until they have some kind of performance program or futurity.

If the pups are paid up in the performance program, another $25.00 plus the $16.00 for permanent registration....sum total for a litter of 6 pups in UKC.... $316.00 or $52.00 for each pup. Tack on the $45.00 per pup for PKC and you have $97.00 per pup invested, and you still have the AKC registration to deal with now.

As I stated, I do in fact give my own vaccine, but I deal with a pharmacutical company that supplies vets with vaccine, not a mail order house. Pups get a parvo vaccine at 5 weeks, a five way at 6 weeks, another 5 way at 8 weeks, and yet another 6 way at 10 weeks. The vaccines cost me about 3.00 per dose, not counting the syringes......another 20.00 per pup. Pups that stay here for the full 12 weeks get vaccinated for bordetella and lyme disease as well, so that is another $20.00.

All of this and I have not dumped a kernel of feed to them, have not wormed them at all.....and I use panacure that I get by prescription from my vet.....

I could go on and on about this subject. I raise pups for myself, and sell the rest. I raise them the way that I believe ALL pups should be cared for during their early life. Trust me, I could do it on "the cheap" giving them a mail order vaccine one time before they are sold. I would not buy eggs, milk and cheese to put on the food that they have after they are weaned.....and I could sell them for $100.00 a pup and let the owners worry about the registrations.....

Fact is that not only is this a hobby for me, but it is also a part time job/business. I have records to prove that I have a good chunk of money invested in every pup that is born in my kennel. I sell pups at a loss if you average it out, but normally keep one or two out of each litter for myself. The 20.00 or so that I lose on each pup is my contribution to the cost of the pups that I keep....making each one that I keep cost me about $150.00 or so....

Nothing in life is free!

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Last edited by Oak Ridge on 05-04-2005 at 04:25 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 1962

$300 is fair, a little more if the its something special. A thousand!!!!!!!!!!!! Will a thousand dollar pup be any better than a $300 pup? I doubt it.

I recently seen a stud fee for a dog at $250 and pups for sale from the owner for a thousand. Does that make sense!!!!!!!!!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 705

Thanks Oakridge for the explanation, I can tell that you do it right. By the way, the vaccine I ordered is name brand and from a reputable company that has the name of a couple vets on it. $3.00 a dose is right. I also aplaude your vaccine schedule. I do not believe in shorting on those, I just think it makes more sense to do it yourself as do you. As far as the female I am getting bred, she is a dog that we hunt and I would not breed her except it was part of my purchase agreement with the seller. My motive was never to make money, I just want to get back what I am going to have in them. I do think you go the extra mile by getting the permanent papers and paying the performance fees instead of giving the buyers puppy papers, and that definately makes the pups worth more.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Newhunter, yes a judge can and will do that unless you are in a state that doesn't allow it. It happens every day. They say that they do it to discourage "backyard breeders" who don't take proper care of their pups. AKC has even been known to encourage legislation to make it easier to sue a non liscensed breeder. In other words, they punnish everyone because of some people that do it on the cheap.

Some states allow you to have so many litters a year, over that and you are considered a commercial breeder and then they have a whole new set of laws and taxes just for you LOL.

Every time I have ever read about it or saw the cases on TV the home vaccinations do not hold up in court and the dog is deemed to be sick from the breeder. Then the breeder is left to pay back the price of the dog, all vet bills, and sometimes "pain and suffering" for traumatizing the kids that had to watch lassie die. Admittedly the cases I have read about have all been lapdogs like Yorkies etc, but the law doesn't change.

The cases that have been won by the breeder are when he had a vet record to back him up that the pup was healthy when sold.

Since I only raise litters for myself and don't try to make any money at it it didn't hurt me to cover my bases and pay the vet bills just to make sure it didn't happen to me.

If you knew the kind of luck I have you would understand, I could have every pup I ever raised vet checked for 20 years and the one pup that I sold when I didn't get it checked would be the one I was sued over, and then I would draw a PETA judge LOL.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 705

Rip, I see what you are saying, I would hate to think that a fellow coon hunter would do that if you refunded the money or gave him another pup, but in todays world I sure could see it happen. I am with you on that luck thing, I usually have that same kind of luck lol. If you have any links to stories like that, I sure would like to read a couple, if you could post them or pm them to me. I know you probably don't have any right now, but if you run accross any more in the future, that would be appreciated.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Palatka, Florida
Posts: 1014

Thanks for all the votes and replies. A lot of good points were made.
With that said, She is having pups as I type.

__________________
My name is Leon Silcox and I wrote this message.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Rockmart Ga.
Posts: 8685

Oakie, I wish you'd just sum it up!!! LOL LOL LOL You type a BUNCH of stuff!!!!!! How do you expect us to read all that??? Just put a couple pictures up so we can see. Thats what I usually need anyway. LOL

__________________
In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-- Mark Twain

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 409

75.00 Shot's, 25 count purchased mail order from a reputable company, shipped 2 day in proper packaging.
$80.00, diamond puppy food, 20.00 for a 40# bag, one a month for 4 months.



Newhunter, i dont know about everyone but the shots my pups get are 8in1, and the cost nearly nine dollars a piece. each pup gets a 3 shot series. so, 8 pups times 3 shots a piece is 24 shots. 24 shots times $9 is $216 not $75 . and if somebody is only feeding puppies 1 bag of feed a month their pups are probably a little to hungry. yeah you could sell an un-vaccinated, unwormed, half-starved pup for (someone said on here) $25 a piece, but would u want one. i dont know about ya'll but i dont want a breeder to give me a pup. that is a little selfish, but also $1000 for a pup is getting really streep. 400-500 dollars is enough dependinjg on how much the stud fee is.

__________________
just so u dont have to wonder what my name is, Im Russell Boyette aka: Possum

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Palatka, Florida
Posts: 1014

She has 9 so far. May not be done yet.
Will try to post some pictures in a couple of days.

Good hunting to all.

__________________
My name is Leon Silcox and I wrote this message.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2162

A lot of this depends on your purpose. If marketing hounds is your purpose, then you're better off paying the price for the fashionable pedigree. If they turn out to be a good dog, they'll be worth more for resale, and you'll have an easier time selling pups out of them at a decent price. The premium puppy price you pay for the puppy may justify itself at a later age.

If your purpose is coonhunting, and you don't care about paper and pedigree marketing, I believe you can buy as good or better pups at $200-$300 than the ones that people are asking $1,000 for.

I believe that the people paying the high prices for pups are doing it because of the marketing angle more than they are because they want a top dog to hunt.

I'll try to estimate costs for raising and training a dog til 2 years old.

Feed, Vet, Misc. : $300/year x 2 years = $600.

100 Nights Hunting (3 hours/night) = 300 Hrs. x 5.15 (Minimum Wage) = $1,545. That's not hunting hard, and doesn't even consider the additional time you'll spend taking care of and working with your pup.

30 miles round trip x these 100 nights = 3,000 miles x 35 cents/mile = $1,050.

Just add those three together (and they are certainly not excessive), and we're at $3,195 in money and time invested (without valuing our time very highly).

Now lets add the puppy prices. Puppy A = $300 + $3,195 = $3,495. Puppy B = $1,000 + $3,195 = $4,195. That's only 20% more for Puppy B. The point being that the puppy price is the smallest part of your investment in time and money. After that the costs remain constant. So really, what you need to evaluate is the chance that the puppy you select will turn out to be the type and style of dog to suit you.

The problem with this whole scenario is that it only deals in costs. It's results that really matter.

If you're looking at titles and pedigrees, remember some papers aren't legitimate, some titles are a result of mean dogs, babbling dogs, slick treeing dogs, dishonest handling, and some are a result of honest coon dogs and honest handlers. You can't tell the difference without first-hand knowledge of the dogs and owners/handlers.

1,000 miles away and fancy ads won't make a dog any better than that top dog in your own territory. The results that someone else gets from hunting 7 nights a week or having their dog professionally trained and handled will likely be much different than what you could expect from hunting 2-3 nights a week. Find someone that hunts like you and has gotten results (a dog/dogs) that YOU LIKE!!!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 409

this is just my opinion, and it dont mean much. i think what alot of u people want is for someone to sell u an all-grand, ss paid-up, vaccinated, wormed, healthy puppy for $150. and i think what alot of you mean by "proven" crosses is that the sire and dam are GRNTCH's . in other words you want someone else to go to all the expense, and sell them to you for nothing. some of you who bitch about puppy prices will probably go and spend $400-500 on a worthless ankle-biter for ur wife.

this is what worries me about puppies. there are tooooo many show only dogs being bred out there. this is a "HUNTING" breed of dogs and should be kept that way. this "show-dog" has ruined many breeds, and shouldnt be practiced w/ coondogs

__________________
just so u dont have to wonder what my name is, Im Russell Boyette aka: Possum

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

Hit every nail right on the head.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Palatka, Florida
Posts: 1014

Looks like about 30% say $400 or more is fair.
That sounds fair to me also. Pups will be $400 each, if there is any to sell.

__________________
My name is Leon Silcox and I wrote this message.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

$400 for a puppy. Must be some good walker blood!! lol

__________________
"The Proof is in the Pudding"

"Coon Eyes Matter"
Boss Lights
San Mateo, Fl

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Rockmart Ga.
Posts: 8685

Vernon coonhunter, I dont want something for nothing. I know it cost money to breed dogs as such cause I have done it myself and I asked $150 each for the pups and I LOST MONEY. I dont want something for nothing but what I do want is the TRUTH. Somthing folks rarely get when dealing with dogs or pups.

__________________
In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-- Mark Twain

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged