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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
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Yes, a bawl on track is a hound trait, and a higher pitch chop is a cur trait, but Joe there are some cosmetic and dimensional aspects to the breed standard that you've over-looked in the past, right?


David Schmidt

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line breeding is okay if you don't go overboard most go overboard every thing snowballs good traits bad traits! some things why are overlooking lot of dalmations deaf? many breeds bad hips? if we breed coondog to coondog we should get coondogs i'm not saying crossbreed but if color didn't matter we would have better coondogs imo.

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quote:

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Originally posted by groworg1
line breeding is okay if you don't go overboard most go overboard every thing snowballs good traits bad traits! some things why are overlooking lot of dalmations deaf? many breeds bad hips? if we breed coondog to coondog we should get coondogs i'm not saying crossbreed but if color didn't matter we would have better coondogs imo.

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Joe - I didn't mean to poke at you, just asking some probing questions for the sake of this discussion. And I have read the standard a multitude of times, but you are right, many have not.

It was not the color (or lack of), the eyes, or even the "ugly" so often debated on this forum. It was the other physical measurements and relative scale, that I had in question. I've never put a tape to your hounds, and you have some females I would be very proud to own, but I'm not certain they all meet the standard.

Heck Boom has many issues with the relative dimensions of the standard, but I'm not considering clipping him either. But that was my point, if we are willing to overlook some features that don't exactly meet the standard, can we not do the same with matters of preference... without feeling guilty that we deteriorated the breed?

Here's what I'm wondering... if the majority of our hounds came from trail hounds, and we assume that the majority of them were bawl mouth (which may not be the case) how did we get chop mouth tree dogs, without breeding some dogs that were totally chop mouth???

Of course the argument may be, that we did that to get where we are, and we don't want to go back. But that's assuming that everyone shares the opinion that a hound must bawl on track.

I'm still trying to figure out, if it's purely a matter of preference, and since I don't care, is it OK. Or is it really a matter of what a hound should be.

David Schmidt

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Dave,

No harm, no foul.....

I admit that my line of dogs are on the small side of the stature scale, be each and every one of them are inside the boundaries set forth by the walker breed association.

Females at 20" are just a few inches taller than a small beagle....I mean think about an 8" boot and how far that comes up your leg...now add a foot to that...it barely would reach your knee....

At issue here is conformation standards vs hunting ability. Yes, I think it's important that dogs meet the minimum height standard, and not exceed the maximum, but in the grand scheme of hunting, is it important if the ears are long or short? And define "medium length" as it pertains to a dogs ear anyway...it's subjective.

The bottom line is that we should only be breeding the best to the best....You define your ideal hound then you consider breeding a dog just because you like what you've seen out of it by the time she is 9 months old. Sure, you might breed her to your extra loud bawl mouth dog, and get bawl mouth pups....but the second generation may be all born chop mouthed....do you really want that?

Nobody is saying don't enjoy the little dog.....she just isn't a good breeding stock consideration if you like bawl mouth track dogs......

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i'm quite sure out breeding is not the cause to deaf dogs or bad hips inbreeding is lets get real there is a difference between inbreeding and line breeding but not much and when people go overboard thats when the breed suffers imo

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Inbreed to purge bad traits works for livestock , you can eat the culls .... if the stock you have for hunting are nice and healthy enough ... it's not the best idea to inbreed for the sake of cleaing up the genes just so people can get pups and have to cull their hunting buddy ....


When it comes to hunting stock , we walk the line between science and the real world ... as in ... if we can't touch it or see it then it doesn't exist and you can't argue against that ....which works both ways ...


If you can't tell the difference in an inbred dog and an outcrossed dog when we are out hunting ... then you can't really try and say one is better than the other and have a legitime argument.

You can do that with laying hens an milk cows because their performance is straight down the pipe numbers ... nothing to interpret about how many eggs a hen lays per year ... compared to which dog is better or whatever ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by groworg1
i'm quite sure out breeding is not the cause to deaf dogs or bad hips inbreeding is lets get real there is a difference between inbreeding and line breeding but not much and when people go overboard thats when the breed suffers imo

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Joe , it's basic that inbreeding doesn't create genes that aren't there .... but if those bad genes underneath are not effecting a line of dog's ability in the woods ... then there is no reason to purposely bring them to the surface ...


Inbreeding doesn't make bad genes ... but the person that choose to inbreed knowing that some recessives will pair up and make a higher percentage of culls ..... and still does it and sells the pups ... is not doing something as impressive as he/she thinks ...


and you'll never convince the average coonhunter of how awesome linebreeding is when they can counter your promotion of linbreeding with those bad examples .... let's be real.


Linebreeding combined with Assortative mating .... that would be my goal ...

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OK, I understand the statistics and some of the biology behind line and in-breeding, but are the real-world results any better? I hate to use competition events as a measuring stick, but if the goal behind breeding a better hound is to be measured, other than personal satisfaction, the hunt results is really all we have.

So... how many top performing hounds, World Champions, Purina Point winners, top reproducers, etc. have been line or in-bred? If the results of line-breeding is less variation, and therefore I would assume less flaws (assuming we're not breeding for the bad traits), shouldn't our top hunt performers be line-bred? If not, are we on the verge of that? And if not, why would we do it?

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David,

What about the Yadkin River line? Wild Clover? many of Stylish Clover's offspring? What about Nite Heat dogs? Homer Gomer? Hardwood Homer? Moll's Salt Creek dogs? Buck Creek dogs? Skuna River Fred? Skuna River females? Finley River Lonnie and others?

They were all linebred lines that performed in the hunts well.

As far as top producers list: Red Eagle Casey III and MK Night Heat Eagle and Crocker's Quick Flash.

Just to name a few off the top of my head.

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Whoa, Larry. Several dogs that you listed, have had breeders line breed back to them, but weren't line bred themselves.

I'm not an expert on all the dogs you listed. But I'm looking at Boom's 6 gen pedigree and neither Wild Clover, or Stylish Clover, were "line bred". Unless my definition is different, than yours. Wild Clover was out of Bozo and Julie. Bozo goes back two generations to Bawling Barnie, while Julie goes back to Chief. Now, maybe those two were somehow related, farther back than I can see (I have no idea), but I wouldn't call that line breeding.

And of course, Stylish Clover was out of Chirpee, which was a Lipper female. So even if Wild Clover was line bred, which I wouldn't say he was, Stylish Clover would have been a result of an out-cross.

And my young female is out of Hickory Pride which is out of Red Eagle Casey III, which according to her pedigree was also an out-cross.

So although I agree that there's a lot of line-breeding on the lines you mention, most of the "famous" dogs of those lines are due to out-crosses. Again, unless one of the dogs you listed that I'm not familiar, is a result of a line-breeding.

And just to be clear my post was not intended to challenge the methodology, but rather ask to be educated. Other than opinion, where's the hard evidence that line-breeding is working. To clarify, I wasn't asking for famous lines, I was asking for the famous result or even not so famous result.

David Schmidt

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Ok another subject. I have a young dog little over a year old. Will shocking him for barking in the kennel affect him any as far as opening on trail? I have had some say yes and some say no

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WHY DOES MUTT LIVE TO BE 18 SEEN MANY TIMES PUREBRED LUCKY TO REACH 12 SAME WITH COWS SEEN WHAT HAPPENS MANY TIMES NEXT THING YOU KNOW 3 QUARTS MILK SWAY BACKED BAD LEGS SAME BULL OLD FARMER SAYS GOOD BULL NOT A MEAN BONE IN HIM LETS GET REAL THE OLDER THE FARMER GETS THE LONGER THE BULL STAYS SEEN MANY TIMES THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LINE AND IN BREEDING I THINK ED MEADE SAID IT BEST DON'T LINE ON MORE THAN 3 OUT OF THE FOUR SIDES I'M SURE HE LEARNED THE HARDWAY JMIO

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Dear friend Dave....unfortunatly you don't have the grasp of line breeding that you might think you do..... Just looking at a six generation pedigree of your dog is a very poor way to evaluate the inbreeding. You must be a student of pedigrees to fully understand. We are looking for the Aunt X Uncle crosses, the littermates of dogs with "big names) and let's not forget the FEMALES......

To the contrary, Logan's Wild Julie has a COI of 6.3%. She was line bred on Finley River Chief (Grandaughter both top and bottom), and also on Shelter's Sonny Boy (again both top and bottom)

And the DAY that I start using hunt wins to evaluate my breedings...I QUIT. Ask anyone who has ever won anything beyond a local hunt, and they will tell you that it takes two things to win....a decent dog...and a LOT OF LUCK. I'm not willing to make breeding decisions based on A LOT OF LUCK....

I don't have a large enough pedigree database to answer your question directly....but line breeding is the BASIS for many truly outstanding individuals. Stylish Oz, won over 44,000 in PKC, Stylish Thorn is a World Championship quarter finalist, and National Finalist.....

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Roughneck Boom - All Ancestors, 8 generations, sorted by blood%
Inbreeding: 10.5%
NTCH Oak Ridge Stylish Ruby, 1 occurrence,
NTCH The Joker, 1 occurrence,
PCH Stylish Clover, 2 occurrences,
NTCH Gadd's Indiana Singin Yaya,

GRNTCH Stylish Oz,

GRNTCH Warner's Pre Dawn,

GRNCH Korte's Stylish Chirpee, 3 occurrences, c

GRNCH Logan's Wild Clover, 3 occurrences,

GRNTCH House's Lipper, 6 occurrences,

GRNTCH Schmersal's Stylish Queen, 6 occurrences,

GRNTCH Owen's Hardwood Bozo, 6 occurrences,

House's Queen Lou, 12 occurrences,

GRNTCH Ball's Stylish Hickory Nut Harry,
GRNTCH Rasen River Stylish Jack, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Reinke's Hanna the Dog, 1 occurrence,

GCH Starn's Oklahoma Sadie, 1 occurrence,

Stylish Lace, 1 occurrence,
GRNTCH Wager's Stylish Lipper, 3 occurrences,

GRNTCH Logan's Wild Julie, 4 occurrences,
GRNTCH House's Clint, 6 occurrences,

Wick's Ozark Missy, 6 occurrences,

GRNTCH Wick's Stylish Banjo, 6 occurrences,

GRNTCH Ball's Hickory Nut Harry,

NTCH Rutan's Bear Cr. Princess,
Blackwater Cricket, 1 occurrence,
GRNTCH Blind Boy's Stylish Batman,

GRNTCH Hard Knockin Stylish Hayes,

GRNT CH Hicountry's Nite Heat, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH High Country Liza Jane, 1 occurrence,

NTCH Iowa County Sinner, 1 occurrence, c

Iowa County Yad. R. Bell, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Schmersal's Stylish Anna, 1 occurrence, (littermate to Stylish Clover)

Wild River Movie, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH House's Tom Tom, 9 occurrences,

GRNT CH Magill's Lone Pine Jill, 4 occurrences,

GRNTCH Mears Finley River Dan, 4 occurrences,

NTCH Shive's Goldhill Lou, 9 occurrences,
GRNTCH Shive's Goldhill Tom, 9 occurrences,

NTCH Sheffield's Cry Baby, 2 occurrences,

NTCH Brinkley's Ozark Preacher, 6 occurrences,

GRNTCH Gregg's Banjo Style, 6 occurrences,
McGatha's Sadie, 6 occurrences,
Morgan's Missy, 6 occurrences,
Ball's Candy, 5 occurrences,

Bear Creek Pam, 5 occurrences,

GRNTCH Finley River Chief, 5 occurrences,

Melody Bill, 5 occurrences,

GRNT GRCH Merchant's Bawling Barney,
GRNTCH Hicounty's Sidewinder, 1 occurrence,
Manley's Sally, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Moorer's Dolly, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Sieper Creek Super Star,

Smith's Hollow Oak Sadie, 1 occurrence,
GRNTCH Taylor's Hardwood Dixie,

Tomoka River Chief,

NTCH Vanya's Scout Master,

Duval's Lone Pine Lady, 3 occurrences,

GRNT GRCH Finley River Pete, 3 occurrences,

Goodale's Cindy II, 3 occurrences,
GRNT CH House's Chief, 5 occurrences,

NT CH CH Kaw River Chief, 4 occurrences,
Shive's Gold Hill Queen, 4 occurrences,
NTCH Stan's Sailor Junior, 4 occurrences,
Tinsley's Kansas Tess, 4 occurrences,
Wrights's Sue, 4 occurrences,

Bawling Rowder, 3 occurrences,
Bixler's Supreme Sally,
Bugler's Muse, 3 occurrences,

Clark's Bonnie, 3 occurrences,

NTCH Clifton's Ruby, 1 occurrence, c
Farris Paducha, 3 occurrences,
Fowler's Deep So. Candy,

NTCH Fowler's Euchee Creek Snake,

Gasonade River Queen, 3 occurrences,
GRNTCH Godwin's Jolly,
Gregg's Old Princess, 3 occurrences,
GRNTCH Hendricks Little Buck,
NTCH Hershberger's Okla Spot,
Lynn's Oklahoma Jill, 3 occurrences,

McGinnis Banjo Rock, 3 occurrences,

Pryor's Bell, 3 occurrences,

Shelter's Sonny Boy, 3 occurrences,

NTCH Terrel's Palmetto Chief, 3 occurrences, c

NTCH Treadwell's Hardwood Logan, 1 occurrence, (Littermate to Logan's Wild Clover)

Waggoner's Rowdy,

Dolan's Slow Poke,
NTCH Finley River Bell, 2 occurrences,

NT CH CH Hevrin's Kenton Speed, 2 occurrences,

Hevron's Melody Ann, 2 occurrences,

Lucky Seven Fern,

NTCH House's Bawlie, 2 occurrences,
Singleton's Ruby, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Watt's Tree Popper, 1 occurrence, nt

Adam's Chief, 1 occurrence,

NTCH Bun's Jack, 1 occurrence, t

NTCH Colvin's Indiana Queen, 1 occurrence,

House's Judy, 1 occurrence,
House's Queen, 1 occurrence,
NT CH CH Johnson's Banjo, 1 occurrence,
Johnson's Kansas Rose, 1 occurrence,
McIntosh's Ruby, 1 occurrence,

Monroe's Betty, 1 occurrence,
Roak's Angel, 1 occurrence,

GRNTCH Sharp's Penny Lad,

Stan's Sailor Boy, 1 occurrence,
Tinsley's Kansas Jane, 1 occurrence,
GRNT CH Tut's Tillie,

GRNT CH Vance's Crowding Billy, 1 occurrence,

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Yep, I thought about that later. I didn't quite type what I was thinking.lol That is the results of being on the computer overly tired. Sorry.

There are and have been many dogs linebred on the Wild Clover line. I would have been better off saying Lone Pine dogs.

Fact of the matter that you know, tells me you know line breeding can be a good tool. That is right, it is simply a tool nothing more nothing less.

The thing that bothers me most when discussing dog breeding and line breeding is it is not a panacea. It is not a fix all.

I am sure you have seen a novice use a complicated tool before. What were the results of that use. Now, just because that novice made a mess does that take away from that tool? Alright, now let me ask you how many true masters of wood working tools have you seen?

You ask why don't we see more line bred dogs in the prominent circles we all desire? That is simple. There are few masters. Nearly, everyone I know who use the line breeding tool considers their selves mere students.

Another part of that reason is that most of us just don't make enough crosses. The investment is too great for most coon hunters.

Another reason, may simply be the numbers. Many many more out cross crosses are being made than line bred crosses.

Dave you are simply trying to compare a slotted head screw driver with a phillips head screw driver ... depending on your goal neither is much better than the other.

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Dave....

You made me spend about an hour studying pedigrees this morning......

How about the hottest topic in "winning" today.

Mr. Clean

----------GRNITECH Guess Hardwood Maniac
-----GRNITECH Hardwood Swamp
----------GRNITECH Guess Hardwood Tiny
---CH GRNITECH Houses Hardwood Hunter
----------NITECH Lone Pine Pete
-----Goose Creek Lou
----------Cummings Pop Up Penny
WLDNITECH NGRNITECH MR. CLEAN
----------GRNITECH Hard Knocking Hayes
-----GRNITECH Mc Manna Stylish Hammer
----------GRNITECH Schmersala Stylish Anna
---Sandys Stylish Gail
----------GRNITECH Nocturnal Nailor
-----NITECH Andersons Nocturnal Sandy
----------GRNITECH Ratcliffs Stylish Hooker

I find three crosses of Hardwood Logan (a littermate of Logan's Wild Clover), Four crosses of Lipper, and if I'm counting right, 5 crosses of Logan's Wild Julie....and I don't know or recognize the Stylish Hooker name at the bottom of his pedigree.

By anyone's account Clean is line bred....and he's a winner to boot.

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*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

OK, just like the old coffee shops, sometime there's some friendly banter, so please don't misunderstand this next series. But... Joe opened himself up for this one!

Joe - yes, I am very much the novice when it comes to line breeding and breeding in general, as you well know. This is why I challenge you on many aspects, because that's just how I learn. And that's the reason for this thread.

But... you can't use line breeding to argue performance on Thorn, when you yourself said (and I quote),

"Thorn, (who is not line bred anything) is usually a second or third strike dog.....He's not tight, just won't strike until he knows where the coon is going."

And maybe I just don't understand the definition of "line-breeding" because if it only requires a couple aunts and uncles somewhere in the pedigree, then virtually everything we hunt today, is "line-bred" Lipper! And... if the vast majority of a pedigree (by percentage) is line-bred but there is an out-cross, who get's credit for the stellar results?

In all seriousness, what does define line-breeding?

And come on, Joe... yes, we can all argue the weaknesses in competition hunting as a measuring stick, and we can all name countless GrNtCh that didn't deserve the title. But you, me and most everyone else on the UKC board, still competition hunt. We still want to own a World Champion, and would love for our dogs to top the breeders lists.

We argue the weaknesses of it, and we can explain why last weekend was a joke, but we still pony up our $20 next weekend!

So if you breed dogs, and you compete those dogs, and you didn't do so to just donate to the local club, we can only assume that one of the desirable outcomes of a breeding program is to win those hunts you spend you hard-earned money on. Regardless of whether it's an effective tool for measuring a dog's capability or aptitude.


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bigdiezel79 - there's no guarantees, but I would say it all depends on what they're barking at in the kennel. If they're winding nearby coon, and you bust them for barking, there's a chance they'll do less of it in the woods. I myself actually found a dead kitten coon in my kennel this spring, and that made me second guess shocking the dogs, without being absolutely sure what they're up to.

David Schmidt

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Joe - I was wondering about Mr. Clean, and was waiting for someone to educate me.

Again, I wasn't attempting to challenge line-breeding, I was looking for some tangible results in it's favor, and didn't have the knowledge myself.

But at the same time, I can hear the roar in the coffee shop now... the line-breeders are arguing the virtues of such a program and the nay-Sayers are pointing to the one out-cross in each pedigree and using that as the justification.

I myself, just aren't sure, and hence the thread...


Larry - no problem, I've had those nights. And you're right, it's a tool and I'm sure a balance must always be struck between in and out-crosses.

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Dave...

I appreciate the banter....and you can quote me till I'm blue...

Thorn has a COI (coefficient of Inbreeding) is 5.4%. Line bred on Lipper (three crosses), Hardwood Bozo (three crosses), and Stylish Queen (three crosses).

Inbreeding is the mating of individuals who are related to each other. It's not about lining up as many individuals of the same name on a pedigree...

As for competition hunting....I like to hunt in the hunts as much as anyone, more than some. But I promise you that winning a big hunt means nothing more to me than the dog accomplished winning a hunt. It is NOT one of the criteria used in my breeding decisions.

I'll go back a few topics to the chop mouth track dog. I can name a VERY prominent "winner" that is getting bred almost on a daily basis. That dog is a chop mouth dog, and has one of the most common mouths ever hung on a house dog. Sure, he did some winning, but I would not breed to him based on that "winning". Fact is, I would come a lot closer to breeding to your Boom dog than Mr. big winner!

Breeding based upon a hunt win is most likely one of the poorest breeding choices you can make...

To your point, it is difficult to establish a "common" measuring stick. And I'm not out to do that anyway. I have my own measuring stick, and I'll stick to it.....titles or hunt wins is not on the measuring stick anywhere.

The bottom line is that sometimes we get "lucky" when breeding hounds. Sometimes those total outcrosses produce a star....More times than not, it produces an AVERAGE of the parents. However, those that are astute, pay attention, and make breeding selections based upon TRAITS....will stack the odds in the favor of those that are breeding individuals who are related and share the same traits.

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I wrote this article for a breeding web site several years ago:

Prepotency can best be defined as the unusual ability of an individual or strain to transmit its characteristics to its offspring due to dominant genes. Genes contain DNA. DNA serve as the basis of heredity. Without getting scientific, genes transmit hereditary characters by specifying the structure of genetic material. It is what people are referring to when they say he’s a chip off the old block or the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, etc. Let’s say a child who was separated from his father at an early age meets his dad when he’s twenty years old. The twenty year old notices that both him and his dad have quiet dispositions and frequently smile. These can be said to be inherited traits. These tendencies come from genes containing DNA which predisposed them to have quiet, amiable dispositions.



Filial Degeneration can best be explained as the tendency of an individual of a line to revert to the average of that line. What exactly does this mean? Well a good illustration of this would be if a family of three generations of short, unattractive people gave birth to a daughter who grew to be both tall and pretty. Filial Degeneration would dictate that this tall, pretty girl would probably give birth to short, unattractive children. This is due to the fact that the preponderance of her genes contain DNA coded with the short unattractive blueprint.



Now, knowing that an individual of a line has a tendency to revert to the average of it’s line gives us something to work with. We can strive to establish a line of high performance prepotent dogs. How, you ask?Well if we start with proven dogs, breed youngsters from them and cull severely(by cull severely I simply mean to NEVER breed them), we will be left with proven dogs who are bred from proven dogs. The dogs remaining in the breeding pool, after the culling process, are those that inherited the desirable characteristics/genes from their parents. With each generation bred and culled you are narrowing your gene pool.



What you are doing in effect is increasing the probability of future youngsters inheriting the genes responsible for the desirable characteristics of your foundation pairs. A dog receives 50% of its genes from it’s sire and 50% from it’s dam. When you breed from a pair of winners versus a pair of winless dogs(by win I mean dogs that win the right to be bred by careful selection of traits), you increase the likelihood of producing winners greatly. Lets break it down. Say you place 20 balls, 4 red, 4blue, 4 green, 4 yellow and 4 black in a bag. Now, you can reach into this bag and extract two balls at a time. Red balls are the designated desirable balls. Two reds win. One red with any other color also wins. Two of any other color, or combination of colors, other than red lose. Now if after every draw you throw away the non-red balls and place the red ones back in the bag, you are increasing the probability of getting a red ball with each subsequent draw. After every draw and disposal of the non-red balls you are increasing the percentage of red balls to the total amount of balls. Eventually you will be left with all red balls and each and every draw will be a desirable draw. Now substitute red balls with desirable genes and substitute draws with youngsters. If you cull the losers (non-red balls) and only put the winners (red balls) back in your kennel, you are increasing the probability of getting desirable genes passed on to future youngsters. The name of the game is limiting the gene pool.



In the world of coon hound breeding, we have hung our hats on breeding a winner to a winner. We breed our desirable male, to our desirable female, unrelated as they may be. We take the desirable offspring out of that cross, and we breed them to a desirable dog from another line. The very best we can do is to revert to “average”. We are not removing the non-red balls from the bag! We may have just as many red balls as when we started, but we have just as many non-red balls as well.



By making use of filial degeneration, and selective breeding dogs with only the desirable characteristics of their parents, over time you will increase the level of “average”. If in one case average is characterized by 50% of the pups from any single cross making good dogs, and with selective breeding, and making use of filial degeneration, you raise the level of average to 90% of any litter being good dogs, you are well on your way.

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** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Joe - first, great article, second is there a rule of thumb, or generally accepted practice for what COI, is to be considered a "line-bred" dog? Otherwise one might argue that since we're breeding registered coonhounds, or more specifically Treeing Walkers, that we are meeting the definition of breeding related animals. For your program, what COI threshold would you consider an "out-cross"?

Would or should one not argue that if you're breeding for better hounds (in-breeding or otherwise) that you should be more succesful on average, in the hunts?

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I need another cup of coffee.

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http://stirekcanineservices.weebly.com

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