Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
Posts: 487

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
If your dog hunts from the tail gate with it's head down trying to find a workable track you will never sell it to some one winning in the nite hunts. They want them to run with there head up and not stop and work a TRAIL they can't smell with there head up. There is a big differance between a track dog and a trail dog.

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
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quote:

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Originally posted by wildbill
answer #1....why people buy young dogs over pups is

they can buy them for the same price as a pup and someone else has eat the cost of raising them to starting age
where a halfazz trainer can work the snot out of them and get them started and have a dog at a lot less cost and/or sell for a larger profit if so disired.....

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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No offence but you just don't know the differance between track and trail. A track dog is right over the original foot prints or track. A trail dog will be down wind of that with his head up running a trail of scent that has drifted from the track. Most dogs do trail witch is a lot faster and you would have to have to win in comp. They can run fast with there head up till they hit a trail.
A track dog is a lot slower but comp. people isn't interested in that. That is why I said they make a good pleasure dog. I like to listen to 2-3 good track dog on a track. I allso like a good fast trail dog for comp. though.
There is one other type and it is called a drifter or fringe. It can work the oldest trail out there but you better have a lot of patience. I have seen them work a trail 3 days old but it will put you to sleep.

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I have at times, turned out a coon in the afternoon (with no dog nearby) to keep it from climbing the first thing it got to. I've also sat in a deer stand and watched a coon feed and then leave and I noted on which side of this bush and that tree and ditch crossing and other things as far as I could see, just like on the turn out. Then go home and get a dog and watch what he does. Well, it's embarassing as helk alot of the times. Oh yeah he'll get it treed, somehow.

The head up or head down thing makes alot of sense if you're talking about squirrel dog hunting.

The other type of person that gets to know is a guy like me and I haven't figured it out yet.. Sometimes, I hunt marsh coons in the daylight so I can sometimes catch a glimpse of the coon! With a pack of different breeds. Some Track, some trail, (what's the difference?) some don't say much but will "cut" across to join another dog that's got one screaming hot for the moment. Some will keep their head down in the grass and others will be bounding 4 feet off the ground to see across the grass. As far as I'm concerned, every one of them had better cut across! I don't want no "independent" track stradler, even though I can't swear if he's straddling a track, I can tell if he'll honor another dog or just plain deaf.

I will say it takes a pack to consistently catch them on the ground .

Since 99% of coonhunting is done at night and the dogs are out of sight, how can anyone swear a dog is head up or down or track stradling or side tracking or even back-tracking for that matter?.

Since we're not hunting that kind of beagle, I'll pretty much bet most coondogs drift a track pretty good.

Last edited by l.lyle on 11-17-2009 at 05:38 AM

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before my dog opens I do not feel I am hunting a good track dog. Time to raise some more pups.
Kyle [/B][/QUOTE]


So I hope you'll be raising them off somebody else's stocK!! LOL

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
Posts: 4143

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyle W. Graf
You are buying a dog that is not good enough for someone else. That is not the most effective way to get a top dog.

[..#1.......could be the dog is good enough but the owner don't have the knowledge to bring out the coondog in the pup or the time to wait on a late starting dog....]



If dogs are consitently treeing before my dog opens I do not feel I am hunting a good track dog. Time to raise some more pups.
Kyle

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Last edited by wildbill on 11-18-2009 at 04:07 AM

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:

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Originally posted by wildbill
...#2..could be you are hunting a coondog that will finish a track and the others are running a tight mouth night hunt dog that RUNS wide open till he finds a hot track he can tree without slowing down...

regardless how fast a dog moves a track ,i want it to tree any coon in the woods i turn it loose in,, Not in the next township when it finds one after it has outrun all the other dogs to get by itself...

i wont knowingly breed to a dog like that for my own use but if i was nite hunting,,and selling pups to nitehunters..i'd breed every female i could to one...

go's back to different dogs for different folks..(different styles of hunting)

if i get a female thats never been hunted or bred,,i would look at the ped and see if it had the type of dogs in it that i wanted to feed..and if not knowing any of the dogs i'd go and talk to people that would know what type dogs was behind the family tree,,,

with no infomation of any kind on a Brood female ,you would have to breed and keep them till you could see what she produced or put the pups with someone close where you could keep an eye on them ..

or if you was into just selling(puppymill) puppys for the money,breed everything you could get your hands on and hope a couple would do something to help you sell more pups...

this should sum it all up into a nutcase,,lol.

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
LMAO I think you didn't take one thing into consideration. Running out of the country might not be bred in. If some are shocking for treeing at the same tree as another. Then the dogs might just get in the habbit of running out of shocking distance before opening.
Can you see 2 get at a tree at the same time. What do they do flip a coin or both run like hell to find another tree or just stand there and break into a cold sweat knowing what is about to happen? lmao

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 3790

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
Ill tell you why. To keep them from killing each other and over populating. You nor I would have any coon to tree if no one killed any andf that's a FACT!!!!!!!!!!!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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Well , I've been through the paces enough with hunting dogs that I am finally learning a few things ....


.. and for sure , a " pleasure" dog that is a slow locator and checks trees before setting .. ISN'T... trying to be accurate or more accurate than anything else .. they lack confidence and/or breeding.

... a dog can be super accurate and still lock down quick with the confidence to know they have the coon ... it's a sign of better breeding.



..same for track dogs , dogs that appear to labor with a track aren't colder nosed or better track dogs .. they are just decent dogs from decent dogs.

.. excellent track dogs can run cold tracks , wind if needed ... and still stop to walk one out in bad places ... it's another sign of a better bred dog.


.. A fast tracking , quick locating dog is just as fun to pleasure hunt at the slower and less confident hound ... the difference is the better bred dog can be pleasure hunted , competition hunted and studded out to pass those better traits on to his get.

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This is to post the mindset between comp and pleasure. I mean it to be funny and hope not too many of you get bent out of shape.

Cast 4 dogs. Dog A strikes in less than one minute 100 yards away. It's a cold track but works it's way to the edge of a pond. track gets better and is moving away toward the head of the pond. Crosses the head and by now the dog is moving at a good trot coming back down the far side. The coon at this point knows that dog is on his trail but instead of climb then and there, he wants to go back home. So now that hound has a smoldering track he can run with his head up. And he does. he comes flying around behind the pond dam and turn coming straight back at the cast. Some castmember hears the leaves rustling ahead of the dog and cuts on his light and there's the coon moving like it's got turpentine under it's tail and it scurries up a tree. 10 seconds later the dog is there, 10 more seconds of circling the tree, then locates and goes into solid chop. Start to finish, the whole thing took 12 minutes. Other dogs either not struck or out of hearing.

How to score? (Here's the twist. This is a cast of pleasure hunters).

Dog A gets a steak. Dogs B,C and D get scatched for not hunting. If they would have put in BEFORE the two caught them, they would have got their strike Yee Haws. If they put in AFTER two minutes, they would get no strike recognition cause they should have got in quicker. If they got struck in BEFORE the tree, they would get whatever spot they deserved on the tree cause maybe they helped put it up there. Maybe even got a Hootin Yee Haw because he might have overtook Dog A and treed first. If they come in after the tree, they get cussed a little bit. But they all agree after 8 minutes after dog A struck, they should be scratched for not hunting when there was obviously a perfectly good track there to work. After a track like that, you got one hunter on cloud nine and three more stumbling over their bottom lip saying to themselves, if Ol Pete, Dragstrip Blastin Funnycar, or Super Fanatic Hardknockin Goyonder would have been here he would have showed Dog A how to tree that coon!

Last edited by l.lyle on 11-19-2009 at 07:03 AM

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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:

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Originally posted by l.lyle
This is to post the mindset between comp and pleasure. I mean it to be funny and hop not too many of you get bent out of shape.

Cast 4 dogs. Dog A strikes in less than one minute 100 yards away. It's a cold track but works it's way to the edge of a pond. track gets better and is moving away toward the head of the pond Crosses the head and by now the dog is moving it a good trot coming back down the far side. The coon at this point knows that dog is on his trail but instead of climb then and there, he wants to go back home. So now that hound has a smoldering track he can run with his head up. And he does. he comes flying around behind the pond dam and turn coming straight back at the cast. Some castmember hears the leaves rustling ahead of the dog and cuts on his light and there's the coon and it scurries up a tree. 10 seconds later the dog is there, 10 more seconds of circling the tree, then locates and goes into solid chop. Start to finish, the whole thing took 12 minutes. Other dogs either not struck or out of hearing.

How to score? (Here's the twist. This is a cast of pleasure hunters).

Dog A gets a steak. Dogs B,C and D get scatched for not hunting. If they would have put in BEFORE the two caught them, they would have got their strike points. If they put in AFTER two minutes, they would get no strike points cause they should have got in quicker. If they got struck in BEFORE the tree, they would get whatever spot they deserved on the tree cause maybe they helped put it up there. If they come in after the tree, they get cussed a little bit. But they all agree after 8 minutes after a dog struck, they should be scratched for not hunting when there was obviously a perfectly good track there to work.

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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Well , I've been through the paces enough with hunting dogs that I am finally learning a few things ....


.. and for sure , a " pleasure" dog that is a slow locator and checks trees before setting .. ISN'T... trying to be accurate or more accurate than anything else .. they lack confidence and/or breeding.

... a dog can be super accurate and still lock down quick with the confidence to know they have the coon ... it's a sign of better breeding.



..same for track dogs , dogs that appear to labor with a track aren't colder nosed or better track dogs .. they are just decent dogs from decent dogs.

.. excellent track dogs can run cold tracks , wind if needed ... and still stop to walk one out in bad places ... it's another sign of a better bred dog.


.. A fast tracking , quick locating dog is just as fun to pleasure hunt at the slower and less confident hound ... the difference is the better bred dog can be pleasure hunted , competition hunted and studded out to pass those better traits on to his get.

---

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
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NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
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quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
LOL That sounds about right to me except the part about them keeping score to begin with. Cussing those last 3 dog is going to be a happening thing though. LMAO

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
You should get ahold of a 30 ft. line behind a tracking dog then do the same thing behind a trailing dog. Then get behind a Blood hound on a track. You will see it has all the confidence in the world that it is going to find what it is tracking and it will drag some ideot be hind him along just for the ride ( I have seen some real dandys behind some)and still find what it is looking for even after the fouled up line and stumbling around in the creek and bushes. The speed in witch a dog works has more to do with drive and tracking technique than confidence.

The other thing is how old the track is. The dog has to be able to smell it with his head up to be able to work it like that. There are so many variables in a track that I wouldn't judge a dog unless I had an idea how old the track was or saw a dog with about the same type nose being able to work it. I have seen a lot of threads on here talking about a dog running a old track with it's head up. Well I guess that is up to what you call old.
Some of those old pleasure dog will run one several hours old and find an end to it. Most people wouldn't want to listen to the first of the race but they can do it on tracks that some other dogs wouldn't be able to smell of if they can wouldn't try to work. I would say the dog that will take on a track like that has a lot of confidence. He just isn't something most people would want to hunt.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:

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Originally posted by l.lyle
This is to post the mindset between comp and pleasure. I mean it to be funny and hope not too many of you get bent out of shape.

Cast 4 dogs. Dog A strikes in less than one minute 100 yards away. It's a cold track but works it's way to the edge of a pond. track gets better and is moving away toward the head of the pond. Crosses the head and by now the dog is moving at a good trot coming back down the far side. The coon at this point knows that dog is on his trail but instead of climb then and there, he wants to go back home. So now that hound has a smoldering track he can run with his head up. And he does. he comes flying around behind the pond dam and turn coming straight back at the cast. Some castmember hears the leaves rustling ahead of the dog and cuts on his light and there's the coon moving like it's got turpentine under it's tail and it scurries up a tree. 10 seconds later the dog is there, 10 more seconds of circling the tree, then locates and goes into solid chop. Start to finish, the whole thing took 12 minutes. Other dogs either not struck or out of hearing.

How to score? (Here's the twist. This is a cast of pleasure hunters).

Dog A gets a steak. Dogs B,C and D get scatched for not hunting. If they would have put in BEFORE the two caught them, they would have got their strike Yee Haws. If they put in AFTER two minutes, they would get no strike recognition cause they should have got in quicker. If they got struck in BEFORE the tree, they would get whatever spot they deserved on the tree cause maybe they helped put it up there. Maybe even got a Hootin Yee Haw because he might have overtook Dog A and treed first. If they come in after the tree, they get cussed a little bit. But they all agree after 8 minutes after dog A struck, they should be scratched for not hunting when there was obviously a perfectly good track there to work. After a track like that, you got one hunter on cloud nine and three more stumbling over their bottom lip saying to themselves, if Ol Pete, Dragstrip Blastin Funnycar, or Super Fanatic Hardknockin Goyonder would have been here he would have showed Dog A how to tree that coon!

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
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580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: May 2009
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quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Being slow to change over and lock down ... or being slow to move a track out ... that doesn't mean the dog is just real cold nosed or real accurate .

I like a cold nosed dog and an accurate dog .. but I also know that if they are constantly finding " cold " tracks and " tough" trees ... then I need to double check them and see what's going on .. not claim they are good pleasure dogs.

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
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CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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