Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

(two thumbs up) to madcatter too many rules!! Lets face it like this.... people who run beagles are not generaly rocket scientists for sure, but you flip over an H&H scorecard and most of us can't even read the whole thing in 90 minutes lol. A simpler scorecard would make it alot simpler. i have to quote Vicky on a previous post Keep it simple stupid. I guess thats why i'm a bigger fan of pp now. Not b/c the style of dog ran but rather b/c the scoring is simpler and less argueable. Goes back to my old arguement train people to interpret these rules get them certified by u.k.c and i think that will put some BACKBONE into this format. Right now there is absolutley no backbone at all.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

that will be my mailed in suggestion for next year! Licensed judges! My suggestion to go along with that if we are choosing our state reps we obviously support them, and they could be the ones starting to license other judges!

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Licensed Judges? I assume you're suggesting all non-hunting judges?

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: west virginia
Posts: 368

I think UKC did the right thing by allowing guys over 55 to be in the same cast! I also understand UKC train of thought when they allowed them to hunt together. I have had some older men in a cast who would tell me that they cant get to the dogs as fast as we can and to just go on that they would catch up. So by saying this lets all take a look at why they even show up to a hunt. Maybe its just to hear a good chase with some different dogs,maybe its to see how a young dog who is coming on really well do a good job in a cast of older dogs, or just maybe its to be with other beaglers for some good fellowship with each other and eat a good hotdog and talk about nothing they love better than their little buddies who they feed every night after a evening of running while thanking the good Lord for giving them the ability to do so. This is what field trialing is all about guys and when I judge a cast this is the kind of people I want in my cast. Its not about winning or losing,its about what I just talked about!!! Maybe some of us need to think about that!!!
Shawn Spurlock
Hillbilly Kennels

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Licensed Judges? I assume you're suggesting all non-hunting judges?

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Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

I went to a hunt, just a few weeks ago, and the MOH just handed me the scorecard and said "You're the judge". I'd never been to that club before, he'd never saw my face before, nor did he ask me if I'd ever judged before. He didn't care. This was the most unorganized, most poorly ran club I'd ever been to. Nobody had a clue what they were doing. They didn't even know how to single register a dog. It was a disaster.

Some regulation of who can be a club would be nice. It could have been my first hunt, but they didn't care.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Gotcha Ohlinger. I've racked my brain trying to come up with a good idea along those lines to "certify" judges for coonhounds. But it seems reality and good ideas are sometimes two separate things. Fraid we might not have enough judges to put on an event if there was such a "requirement". Some would actually see it as a way to get out of not having to carry the card. At least in coonhounds that is. My personal philosophy remains that if a club takes a little reponsibilty in assigning good, honest, knowleagable judges then there wouldn't even be any need for much discussion on this topic. JMO

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 651

Having liscensed judges isnt all its cracked up to be in some cases. You have to pass a test and apprentice under a judge in PP before you can become a judge but to my knowledge the test has never been updated since the last rule changes were made. Therefore we have new judges taking a test that doesnt 100% reflect the current rules. I have also recently heard of some clubs giving the folks taking the test the correct answers! What does that say about being a liscensed judge??????

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 22

Good post Hillbilly Kennels.

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Coshocton Ohio
Posts: 752

Allen some times in picking judges I have had to draft people who had know experance to act as non hunting judges on winners cast. Due to all members taking off as soon as they return off their cast. This is A club that is big enough to handle the world hunt. But with out the commitment of members you can not properly put on A club hunt with 5 cast`s. This is A never ending problem that has know solutition I would personally rather have A inexperanced judge then one who carry`s the card at every hunt and is in the winners pack 90 percent of the time. know matter what dog they or hunting. Proper training will help but how do you make some one spend the time to get this training if you or not paying for their time.

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Registered: Jul 2009
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 387

Aaron

I am working on updating the PP judges test right know.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

Roy I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with you're post that is biggest problem with what i've thrown on the table. Getting people to to be willing to take the extra step to make the hunts better. most people who don't win a cast take off as soon as they return. I always like to stick around at the hunts i do attend. I have'nt been real hot and heavy in the trial scene (besides being deployed right now) even when i was home i was only hitting maybe one or two field trials every couple of months, but i notice the same thing. I think Allen said it as well if the clubs would be more vigilant of who does, and does'nt carry the scorecard that would be a big bonus as well!! There is always a way to criticise anything, and many people have told me there is 100 ways to complete just about any task, some are better than others, but the task still gets done i guess.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Hillbilly Heaven, WV
Posts: 1567

Shawn Spurlock hit the nail on the head with his reply from Hillbilly Kennels.

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Psalms 118:8 (Center Verse in the Holy Bible) It is better to trust in the Lord than put confidence in man.

Jerimiah 17:7 - Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD whose confidence is in Him.

Happy Beagling and God Bless from,
Dusty Road Beagles

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Millersburg,Ohio
Posts: 1976

Xcellent post Shawn..

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: western pa
Posts: 57

maybe if judges were liscensed then there couldnt be as many trails/clubs as there is,therefore hurting entries at hunts,then again,less trails would mean less champions and then they may be respected more.
i am not trying to stir anything but akc allows for only 2 liscensed trails a year in a club.you can have sanctioned trails to make some money and try out a dog if you think its worthy to be entered into a liscensed hunt.how many can a ukc club hold and award champion point to a dog????
less trails will create a better dog imo--
there are more ukc clubs around me that would like my style dog as compared to akc clubs,but i cant see the reason to enter a dog when the judges can't even understand the rules.

heres a question----last years performance pack world hunt,i handled a dog for a buddy...90 minute cast.with 28 minutes left in the 90 minutes their was only one dog left on the ground.the others all minused out...what should have happened.should that dog be declared cast winner or should it have stayed on the ground and run the 90 minutes=it too could have minused out correct????i wont say what was done,cause i dont know what should have taken place.
same trail---second cast out,dog opens and wasnt struck in/put on clock--nuthin was done by the judge/judges---this one judge is a respected guy in pp format.did nothing.shouldnt it have been clocked???
to many rules and a knowledgable rulebook guy can influence a casts outcome.
hunting beagle nationals 2 years ago---i was a spectator and watching a buddies dog,scoring was close,called time and moved to another spot.dogs were running great,losta score,i was ona hill and here came the rabbit right in front of a guy who had a dog winning,i saw he seen the line/rabbit.i asked him"are you gonna call line???"he looked at me like--shutup,then he called the line.---he got second line score when they came througjh and lost by 12 1/2 points, he woulda moved on if i didnt keep him honest
i dont wanna start anything,but i just cant seem to get it with the rulebook.

Last edited by madcatter on 08-21-2009 at 03:33 PM

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Registered: May 2008
Location: wv
Posts: 82

If you think akc is any different keep smoking the stuff you got cause its pretty good.A buddy judging your dog in akc is no different than you judging your own dog in ukc. Dont care how simple the rules are cheaters will cheat period.

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: western pa
Posts: 57

so you are saying everyone who judges their own dog cheats????thats what it sounds like to me,but then again it must be what i am smokin.
gennerally if you stay with the akc judges and see what they see they will choose the best dog on the ground that day,if it wasnt like that then no one would go,usually guys who run a inferior dog and cant place will always blame the judge,in any format.any registry
every akc trail i have been at i would agree with what i saw except 1 time that the right dogs were picked for winners pack.
unless one stays with the judge and see's what they see,one should not think what dog won.they didnt see what judge saw

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Registered: May 2008
Location: wv
Posts: 82

No not every judge will cheat when judging there own dog. But u make it sound like ukc is set up for cheaters. Just saying it is probably just as bad in akc. I have never ran akc but all i hear from people that do is how the people with money do all the winning, or how the buddy system is used to make dogs fc. Dont know just what i have heard but im sure an expert like yourself will tell me how great akc is compared to ukc.

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: western pa
Posts: 57

this is another reason i dont trail ukc,all i did was voice an opinion and now i am labeled a dope smoker, by someone who i never met,and an expert by you.
maybe i should just stick with akc.they seem a little more respectable.
never said anything about how its set-up to cheat.go back to page three of this post(last one on the page) and see what i said.if i claim anything its to many rules.
if you think i am a expert you know very little.


i was present when this stuff happened at a ukc trail,what should have been the proper way to finnish the cast????
2 different trails.one world pp the other nationals???2 hunts and 2 times folks useing the rules to thier advantage or not at all,these were also 2 big events,how much stuff goes on at just club levels to get dogs eligible for entry?
their must be some kind of problem,ya cant rely on folks to be honest,they aint travelling 100+ miles not to win.they want to win.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Coshocton,Ohio
Posts: 2613

Licensed judges, won't really help. The problem is different interpertations of how the rules are interputaed by different people. We all need to be on the same set of rules. We need to be able to post problems on this board and have a disscussion on what the answer is to the question, without a bunch of bickering. It kinda reminds me of some of those elected officals that we voted for in Washington. We are a lot better then them and we can, do alot better then what I've seen out of them.

Quote: Emmert Brohard, Enough Said.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

quote:

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Originally posted by skc
No not every judge will cheat when judging there own dog. But u make it sound like ukc is set up for cheaters. Just saying it is probably just as bad in akc. I have never ran akc but all i hear from people that do is how the people with money do all the winning, or how the buddy system is used to make dogs fc. Dont know just what i have heard but im sure an expert like yourself will tell me how great akc is compared to ukc.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Newark, Ohio
Posts: 1751

Ok...clear my head of the stupider posts on this thread and get back to point...I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that there is a real problem in enforcing & interpreting the rules correctly! We could always put on seminars! After all nothing wrong alil education..or we can continue to go off of hearsay or so and so told me to do it like this...keep leading and following the wrong examples, and nothing will ever get fixed..we'll all end up like skc.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

quote:

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Originally posted by skc
If you think akc is any different keep smoking the stuff you got cause its pretty good.A buddy judging your dog in akc is no different than you judging your own dog in ukc. Dont care how simple the rules are cheaters will cheat period.

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From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

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Registered: May 2008
Location: wv
Posts: 82

ohlinger why do u worry about these stupid dogs? As smart as you are and the way u have everything figured out you should be in the white house. OHLINGER FOR PRESIDENT. Why is it that you can say what you want on the mb and cry when somebody doesnt agree but you love to bash everybody else. You should have atleast gotten the job at ukc.


MADCATTER
Just think the rules being changed wont stop the cheating. Sorry for being so harsh didnt mean anything by it more being funny. ha ha guess thats not welcome on this mb.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

The competition beaglers are not any more honest or dishonest than the coonhound people, the squirrel dog people or any other dog competitions. The last coon hound cast I was on, 3 cheaters voted to circle their dogs instead of misusing them like they deserved. I finally had enough of it, I signed off of the score card, went to the truck, and I have never entered a Nite Hunt cast again even though I have several good coon hounds that could win honest casts. The next to last beagle cast I was on had 3 cheaters circle their dogs for a hole when they clearly back tracked back to where we were standing where there was no hole. I haven't been on a coon hound cast for several years. It is getting to the point where I feel the same way about the beagle hunts as I do the Nite Hunts. It is sad when you can predict the winners before you arrive to a hunt based on who will be carrying the scorecard, not on the dog power. I have run into cheating clubs in both beagle and coon hounds. There is not enough squirrel dog hunts to have a lot of cheating in it yet. I have seen good honest clubs being taken over by the cheaters to where the honest folks won't come any more. There is a couple of local beagle clubs that will never get one penny from me again. The cheaters are in charge. Both clubs are being run by the same people. No elections, no meetings, the winners are picked at the coffee shop the day before. They will be making Champions out of dogs most honest rabbit hunters would cull. Who needs it? Life is too short to put up with a lot of aggravation.

I will add that there are some honest clubs and honest people out there, you just have to look for them. If my dogs are not honest, I cull them. I reckon I will do the same with competition events.

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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