Registered: Oct 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 86

If you understood how to run a business they would have fired their CEO's and made cut back's and various other management decisions long before it got to this point.

Let Toyota , Honda, etc. buy them......they'd quickly can those CEO's .

__________________
"BREEZY OAKS BLUETICKS"
Patrick Barrett or Todd Barrett

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: columbia,mo.
Posts: 1256

I tried to read all of this but couldn't. After that I would be banned for ever for what I would be typing. I ran my own business for almost six years as a brick layer. Almost half the time I worked by my self with no help. You want to talk about hard work go try that out for size. I Made good money but made some dumb decissions and then all the building stopped. Then the gov wanted their money. yes I owed it to them and it was my fault they hadn't gotton it but they sure as hell didn't bother to even talk to me about a bail out. Best advice I got was to quit and work for someone else. My family has scraped by for the last couple years and luckily we had some help from family or we would have lost everything. Do you think the gov cared or anyone else except our family. I can tell you the answer, NO. We are almost completely done with that thank God but the wife and I have worked our butts of to get it paid back. No bankruptcy only hard work day, night, and weekends. I do all the side work I can and the wife works night shift at the hospital so we don't have to pay a lot of day care for the kids.

As for the union stuff, yes you make better money there than anywhere else but if it hadn't been for the unions fighting for wages for years everyone would still be making $5 and hour. How many that don't work for the union pay for private health insurance? I always did and so should you. I was never a fan of the unions but the last two jobs I had were and I'm glad. Some how I landed a job with Ameren UE and it is like a dream come true for the wife and I. A steady pay check is the way to go and everyone in the world has the same chance as I did. I never went to collage, just worked hard and showed up. Ameren has several jobs posted or the last time I looked they did and if you qualify and they want you they will hire you.

I think they need to let the big 3 take care of their own butts just like I had to do. It's no different, some bad dicissions and a struggling economy and down you go. I am sorry that it will affect so many people but all you can do is try and find something else. No, it may not be the same work or as easy but it will pay. I personally can't afford to bail myself and a whole bunch of others out. I'm sorry but my job doesn't pay that much. Lucky to keep my own bills paid and don't want to help with any others. The gov already takes way more than they should. Apparently they are taking way to much if they can afford to give it away in aid to other countries and failing businesses. Sometimes you have to take care of your self first and then help others if you can.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2003

I say let them fold under....and start over...........why should the American taxpayer bail them out, you dont see them giving us any huge price reductions on a new car or truck do you ?..........

It was caused by poor management and over-spending on their part...................................................Tim

__________________
Hoosier-State Kennels
=========================
Proud Member of Team Slugger
=====================

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 97

I told my little boy that Santa Was broke this x-mas & he said can't they bail him out. And the best part is a four year old came up with this.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 55

Here are some things to think about. Lets say they give them the loan no matter what the number is. They will be paying it back just as dodge did. We made 300 million of that loan so it did not cost the tax payer a dime in the end. Now lets say they dont get the loan. We will pay way more in the end this way. State and fed. gov. will not get the sales taxes from the cars and trucks being sold (this is a huge number in each state). The workers in each state will not have money to buy things as we need people to do to get this economy started again. The small shops that supply the big 3 will go out along with the big three. Now we get to pay for welfare,food stamps,unemployment for all of these people that will not have jobs now. Now that all of these people are not working and paying taxes the rest of the people working will need to pay higher taxes to make of the money lost because these people are not now paying any taxes. These things just keeps going.

I also would add this. The cost of the workers wages and bennfits is about 10% of what a new car cost. Some of you guys seem to think it was the workers and the union that have started all this trouble. This is just not the truth. A new worker at G.M starts out at 14.00 a hour and a the older workers makes about twice that. Now most of these guys are paying their ins. and ret. Things have changed alot over the last few years. The worker have gave back alot to help all of the big 3 makes it. None of them would have had this problem if we would have not have the banking problem. Remember these guys are going to pay it back and we will never see a dime of the money that went to the fat cats on wall street. The way it looks to me is we can help them now and pay a little or we can let them fail and pay a lot later.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 55

Knox, they are giving great deals on cars and trucks now. I just had a friend buy a new chevy for 18,500 4x4 loaded and a ext cab. That is a great deal. Now at these kind of prices you can not really afford to buy a 2 year old car or truck.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Jackson, MO
Posts: 784

I have never bought anything but a Ford or Chevrolet and hope these good paying American jobs are available for generations to come. I bet a big part of that $77 an hour is due to out of control health care costs and CEO bonuses. In my opinion the biggest problem for the car industry is everyone is so broke they can't afford a new car after the gouging the oil companies have given us over the last several years.

__________________
Travis Brown
brownt@capetigers.com
573-579-3853
Home of :
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Peggy 4/1991-1/2002
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Little Peg 6/1998-3/2008
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Haley 8/2002-11/2013
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Taylor 3/2005-11/2017
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Rotten 10/2008-2/2013
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Midge 12/2010-1/2021
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Jessie 4/1/14-3/5/2024
Gr. Nt. Ch. Browns Lilly 5/2019-

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2007
Location: n/e wi
Posts: 556

this is to be expected. fare trade we send tons of jobs over seas.in return we recieve childrens toys with lead paint.

__________________
ch nite ch pr nates hardwood kelly
pr nates hardwood hammerin hank

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 86

Almost makes me wanna cry !!!!!

__________________
"BREEZY OAKS BLUETICKS"
Patrick Barrett or Todd Barrett

Last edited by PTB on 12-07-2008 at 03:04 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Eastern IA
Posts: 239

get rid of all unions so the rich can pay us workers whatever they want with no threat.i dont know if bailout is the best action but getting rid of the unions will fix nothing. upper management cuts, higer tax on imports, &ending nafta seem like a good start to me.anybody who is anti union is either rich or stupid.

Last edited by tripple river on 12-09-2008 at 12:09 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

When they get around to renegociating those UAW contracts we will all find out the truth about unoin labor and that truth is that they would all much prefer to see the company close forever than to ever give up anything substantial which is what must happen for the Big Three to survive.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: columbia,mo.
Posts: 1256

I agree with the nafta thing. I think they should cut ties with almost all forign countries on trade. What do we need that isn't in our own back yards? Yes , we do get oil from else where but we have it also if the polar bears and carribou will politly move over a litle so we can get to it. What I don't understand is how are they going to make such a dramatic turn around to repay this "loan"? Are they going to fire all the upper management, or what is this huge plan? I haven't been watching the news since the last begging venture. I mean it takes no rocket scientist to see that the economy was failing and they did nothing to change what they were doing then so what will be different now. I still can't afford a new car and won't buy another anyway. This poor old Chevrolet in the garage is going untill it won't go anymore. Like I said, I made my mistakes and have paid for them dearly and was offered no help with tax breaks or anything so I can't really shed many tears for others. I am sorry it will effect so many people that have no control over it but they always said history repeats it's self and look what is happening now.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location:
Posts: 55

Jim, you have no idea what you are talking about. The unions have already gave up a bunch. All you need to do is look into it. When the senators were talking to the ceo's they even said that the unions and there workers have gave up a lot already. I really think it is funny to see people talking about the unions that have never been part of one. That is like telling someone how to score a tree when you have never been in a hunt or even seen the rules. Everyone on here makes what they make because of the unions. You leave it up to just the owners and they will not pay the workers no more that they have to. All they are looking to do is get richer no matter what. All you need to do is look at the past and what has went on over the past years. The rich got their taxes cut because they would be able to higher more people. What happen they just kept the money and did not put more people to work.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3970

OK this is a Union Bashing thread, I say lets do away with the Unions, then we can all work cheap, and give up our weekends.

__________________
Home of
Log Woods Chester, Treeing Walker,

GRNITECH GR"CH "PR" KIZERS Bleedin Blue Slugger, Bluetick and PR Netherys Trixie Bluetick

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: columbia,mo.
Posts: 1256

Don't forget you will have to work all those holidays we get off as well. It's not the union that is at fault. The union and the company bargin for their contract every so many years and both parties have to agree to it or it doesn't get signed and no work gets done. It's the higher ups that make the big bucks and ride in the plains. They call the shots on how things are run and make all the economic decisions.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Occupied TN CSA
Posts: 1877

G. R. Wagoner, Jr. Chairman & CEO GM 2007

Salary---$1,558,333
Bonus---$0
Stock Awards---$2,561,113
Option Awards---$3,776,710
Incentive Compensation---$1,802,000
Pension---$4,020,400
Other Compensation---$697,358

Total Compensation for one year 2007= $14,415,914



GM worker

$77.00hr x 40hr = $3080.00 week
$3080.00 wk x 52 wks = $160,160 yr
$160160 yr x 90yrs = $14,414,400
Total Compensation for 90 years $14,414,400

(Correct my math if needed)


It takes one man 90 years to make what wagnor made in one. The union isn't the problem. The problem looks pretty simple to me...

__________________
I have to say yall got a good little support group going. Huddle together so yall can keep warm...trackdriver

"Kim Jong-Un speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” An actual sitting US President said that. Let that sink in.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2007
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 659

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wingman66
G. R. Wagoner, Jr. Chairman & CEO GM 2007

Salary---$1,558,333
Bonus---$0
Stock Awards---$2,561,113
Option Awards---$3,776,710
Incentive Compensation---$1,802,000
Pension---$4,020,400
Other Compensation---$697,358

Total Compensation for one year 2007= $14,415,914



GM worker

$77.00hr x 40hr = $3080.00 week
$3080.00 wk x 52 wks = $160,160 yr
$160160 yr x 90yrs = $14,414,400
Total Compensation for 90 years $14,414,400

(Correct my math if needed)


It takes one man 90 years to make what wagnor made in one. The union isn't the problem. The problem looks pretty simple to me...

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Bloomfield, KY
Posts: 79

White and blue collar jobs combined, the Big 3 account for about 3 million US jobs. Those employees contribute roughly 21 billion to Social Security and Medicare, and another 25 billion in federal taxes. By some estimates 1 in every 10 jobs is related to the automotive industry in one way or another. I understand that some foreign cars are made here, but the profits do not stay here. The Big 3 are criticized for giving pensions and healthcare to elderly and or disabled folks that were loyal employees, and the foreign companies are applauded for paying less and giving fewer benefits, and then sell the car for the same price as their American competitors. At one time America produced over 40% of all manufactured goods world wide. We manufactured half of all the tanks, planes, guns, ships etc. used by all nations combined during WW2, which is a big reason why we won the war. Not to long ago we made everything we used, TVs, radios, shoes, clothes, etc. You name it, we made it. Today manufacturing jobs make up about 10% of the job market. That's a level not seen since before the Civil War. During most of the 20th century we were the king of manufacturing, and the worlds greatest lender. Now after having globalism, supposed free trade, and free markets shoved down our throats, we've shifted from a manufacturing based economy to a service sector based economy, and have become 21st century bums. We owe China, Japan, and England trillions of dollars, and there is no end in site to our borrowing. I guess I'm old fashioned because I go out of my way to buy products that are made in the US by US companies. That is getting harder by the day, I helped my dauhgter brush her teeth tonight and noticed her Crest kids toothpaste was made in Mexico. Why does it not bother more Americans that we are inceasingly dependent on foreign countries for our manufactured goods? We used to take pride in being self sufficient, what happened?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Clio, Michigan
Posts: 416

Just stirrin the pot a little but I believe its true....


We dont have to self sufficient anymore, big brother government (dem's) are gonna take care of us......

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Bloomfield, KY
Posts: 79

m blakemore I see your in Iraq so I'd like to thank you for your service to our country, and I hope you make it back to Texas in the near future. I don't know what the dems have in store for us, but we're in such a mess right now I don't know if either party could straighten us out in a timely manner.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Clio, Michigan
Posts: 416

Thanks and I agree about neither party being able to deal with the mess we are in. But I do believe that there are fundamental differences in the way each party would likely address it.


DEMS- throw money at it and increase govt programs
REPS- throw money at it and taxes breaks

If I had a say in it
Let it crash, rebuild with sustainable systems in place.........

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2008
Location:
Posts: 1310

quote:

---

Originally posted by btyoakam
White and blue collar jobs combined, the Big 3 account for about 3 million US jobs. Those employees contribute roughly 21 billion to Social Security and Medicare, and another 25 billion in federal taxes. By some estimates 1 in every 10 jobs is related to the automotive industry in one way or another. I understand that some foreign cars are made here, but the profits do not stay here. The Big 3 are criticized for giving pensions and healthcare to elderly and or disabled folks that were loyal employees, and the foreign companies are applauded for paying less and giving fewer benefits, and then sell the car for the same price as their American competitors. At one time America produced over 40% of all manufactured goods world wide. We manufactured half of all the tanks, planes, guns, ships etc. used by all nations combined during WW2, which is a big reason why we won the war. Not to long ago we made everything we used, TVs, radios, shoes, clothes, etc. You name it, we made it. Today manufacturing jobs make up about 10% of the job market. That's a level not seen since before the Civil War. During most of the 20th century we were the king of manufacturing, and the worlds greatest lender. Now after having globalism, supposed free trade, and free markets shoved down our throats, we've shifted from a manufacturing based economy to a service sector based economy, and have become 21st century bums. We owe China, Japan, and England trillions of dollars, and there is no end in site to our borrowing. I guess I'm old fashioned because I go out of my way to buy products that are made in the US by US companies. That is getting harder by the day, I helped my dauhgter brush her teeth tonight and noticed her Crest kids toothpaste was made in Mexico. Why does it not bother more Americans that we are inceasingly dependent on foreign countries for our manufactured goods? We used to take pride in being self sufficient, what happened?

---

__________________
Home of.........

Baldwin's Blue Princess

and

Baldwin's Blue Texas


In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-- Mark Twain

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Southern Virginia
Posts: 374

Well unlike most people reporting their "facts" on here I work for the automotive sector of the economy. Go ahead and let them fail and not help them. If Chrysler and GM alone fail then you are talking about 3 million jobs that WILL be affected and more. You dont realize how many company's supply these automotive industry. Three million jobs either affected or gone and you tell me what that would do to what is left of the economy. That is alot of above average paying jobs that would be lost to not purchase the products and services that you or your company might produce. Go ahead and bash me but we need those jobs, those company's to make it. I pray that this country gets things turned around and gets it done quickly.

Last edited by Adam Reynolds on 12-09-2008 at 02:23 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Bloomfield, KY
Posts: 79

quote:

---

Originally posted by smokey7
Here's whats wrong. Ford, Gm, and Dodge produce JUNK and sell it for 5 times what it's worth and now are wondering why no one can afford it. First of all it's junk with bad parts, bad gas milage, doesn't last, and on top of that it cost's way too much. Thank GOD for Toyota or poor folks like me wouldn't have a vehicle to drive. If you run yourself out of business by being greedy and stupid then you SHOULD fail and learn a few lessons and get back down to earth with everybody else. It is sickening to see those greedy scumbags fly in in there private jets worth millions or billions of dollars to go and ask the government for help. Where's OUR HELP?? I'm talking about the feller out making 6 or 7 dollars an hour and working to pay bills and living week to week. Wondering how he's gonna make it in this world. I think it's high time some of these rich, greedy, scumbags get back down to earth and reality with the rest of us struggling. I mean STRUGGLING. I say let em crash and burn.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 263

Oil company should be paying this bailout...

Which reminds me how long you think it will take for the oil companies to ask for their bailout?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged