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OK... this thread has taken some twists and turns, unintentionally, but it's all good dialogue. Here were the points I was trying to make, and the questions I was trying to find answers to.

1. this was not necessarily a "new blood" versus "old blood" debate. But I do have a laundry list of characteristics in "new blood" that I'm not a huge fan of. The same with "old blood" but there are some characteristics, that I have only seen in "old blood" that I'm looking for, like some willingness to pack (not me-too) and not blow out of the country, every drop! That's hard to find in many of today's Walkers.

2. this was not a slam against line breeding or a goal of cutting corners... quite the contrary. What I have in mind, only works if some were/are willing to line-breed and be disciplined generation after generation.

3. Joe, for instance... I very much appreciate and mostly understand what he's working, through his program. And that's sort of what I was looking for, only I'm looking for someone that does what Joe does, but with a line a couple generations earlier.

4. My theory... once upon a time, there were much fewer breeding programs out there, that were line breeding, than there are today. Which means, many of the patriarchs we've mentioned came from line breeding programs... House and Finley River for instance. If we can agree on that, that would mean that the next batch of great studs came from a combination of these few programs. So, why not make the same cross that produced the "flavors of the week" as opposed to line breeding on them???

5. If my theory is to be tested or analyzed, I would need to find the keepers of that old blood, and determine what traits they have seen after generations of breeding it.

6. For those that are statisticians, what I'm talking about is making a Design of Experiments of lines and crosses, and their resultant traits and characteristics. Thereby determining the sources of given traits, and their weight of impact.

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Last edited by deschmidt27 on 12-25-2012 at 07:41 PM

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Dave I'm several generations into my program. I started with direct descendants of the original foundation stock that I chose.

I'm not sure I understand your definition of "a couple of generations earlier".... Help me understand that...

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Of course traits can be strengthened or weakened in a litter!!! That's why no pup in a given litter is exaclty like it's brother or sister. Some pups may have a cold nose, and some a colder nose. Some pups may be loud, and some super loud. The trait may be a cold nose, but the magnitude and consistency will vary pup to pup and litter to litter. That is the very reason why folks make the breeding decisions they do.

And of course, there's no cutting mother nature, but that doesn't mean you have to do it alone, or that anyone has a corner on the market of producing the best coon dogs. If history tells us that a mix of pure House and Finley river led to (on average) a certain mix of traits, there's no reason why you couldn't cross a dog from one man's kennel keeping the old House blood alive to one from another kennel that is keeping the Finley River blood alive.

To Joe's point, you can't keep breeding offspring that goes back to Clover or Lipper, or whoever, and reproduce Clover or Lipper. BUT... is there a reason why you couldn't replicate the same cross that created Clover or Lipper???

I realize that it's not a perfect science, but I'm wondering if we have convinced oursleves that a decade or more of line breeding is the only way to get the same mix of traits as that patriarch, you're line breeding on. If DNA is like ingredients, can you not get a batch of ingredients like Chirpee and cross it to a batch like Logan's stock, and increase your likelihhod of re-producing Clover? Unless you repeatedly in-breed, to Joe's point, you bring something else to the mix so you can't recreate Clover, after Clover. So why not start with what led to Clover?

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What happened with the litter of impact?

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Joe - the answer is an elaboration on my theory #4. When I was a kid, there was the line of House, Finley River, Lone Pine, and maybe a couple others that were either only or mostly breeding their own stock. Or at least this is what I recall from my limited knowledge of the coonhound world, at the time. In my teens there was Logan, Red Eagle, Ball's Hickory Nut, etc. And maybe I have the timing a bit off on some of these, although I'm pretty sure John and Joe had a head start on most.

So, there are some logical grouping of Walker lines throughout history. I consider the Clover/Clover/Casey group in the middle, and a mix of those that came before. In other words they are a foundation stock for many, but they themselves had a foundation stock. So when I say a generation or two earlier, I'm referring to the foundation stock, not layers in a pedigree.

Now here comes the engineer in me... if you were to load a DOE with lines and resultant traits, you may be able to discern where those traits came from and/or what combinations led to which combinations. Yes, statistically speaking, you have very low odds of "cloning" one of those off-spring, but probably the same odds or maybe better of reproducing the desired trait combination. In other words, because of all the other variables you bring to the mix with any "cross" you have better odds of reproducing a World Champion by re-breeding his/her parents together, than breeding something else to him or her. Yes the odds are huge, but at least you're dealing with the exact same gene pool!

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Precisely due to the odds, Joe just stated, I would never expect predictable results from breeding Lipper to a World Champion or a World Champion to a World Champion. BUT... re-breeding a World Champion's parents back to one another, would make much more sense. Still not perfect, as there are countless combinations, but significantly better odds.

For instance... I was looking at one of the other breed's Top Reproducers list, and noticed two of the studs listed, had the exact same parents! So... I wouldn't breed to either of those studs. I would breed those two parents again!

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slowpoke I got what you are looking for. linebred no out crosses. Wagner bred 12mts. old male good looking! Call 479-601-5945 anytime.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Precisely due to the odds, Joe just stated, I would never expect predictable results from breeding Lipper to a World Champion or a World Champion to a World Champion. BUT... re-breeding a World Champion's parents back to one another, would make much more sense. Still not perfect, as there are countless combinations, but significantly better odds.

For instance... I was looking at one of the other breed's Top Reproducers list, and noticed two of the studs listed, had the exact same parents! So... I wouldn't breed to either of those studs. I would breed those two parents again!

---

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Joe,

Again, this was never a debate against line breeding, and you are likely right that many of those patriarchs folks line breed on, were not themselves line bred.

And yes, line-breeding does reduce variables and potential combinations, I'm not disputing that, BUT would you not agree that if your goal is to reproduce that one set of combinations, that the odds are better with replicating the exact same cross? And other cross, line-bred or otherwise (accept in-breeding) brings additional, potential combinations?

I'm not trying to reduce combinations, because my goal is not to produce a new line of dogs, or sell pups. My goal is to increase my odds of recreating that one desireable combination, or close there to.

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It's definitely a curse to a line when someone starts breeding tight on a famous stud or bitch and closes off new blood and new combinations without experimenting .. it's kills em' dead .


Those foundation dogs were just rare and awesome dogs that got into the right hands to be promoted ... and many times the next generation came from some random stud feed pup the stud owner bought back rather than anything he did on purpose ... over and over ... and the stud owner and his clique ramble on about being a great breeder , lol.

Genes don't need to be inbred to be maintained ... it doesn't make em' better or stronger .... all coonhounds are already related so we are linebreeding no matter what ...

The laws of the universe say you have to adapt , experiment and evolve or die .. forward or backward but you never get to coast ... even coonhunters live and die by that law even if they don't know it ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil
It's definitely a curse to a line when someone starts breeding tight on a famous stud or bitch and closes off new blood and new combinations without experimenting .. it's kills em' dead .


Those foundation dogs were just rare and awesome dogs that got into the right hands to be promoted ... and many times the next generation came from some random stud feed pup the stud owner bought back rather than anything he did on purpose ... over and over ... and the stud owner and his clique ramble on about being a great breeder , lol.

Genes don't need to be inbred to be maintained ... it doesn't make em' better or stronger .... all coonhounds are already related so we are linebreeding no matter what ...

The laws of the universe say you have to adapt , experiment and evolve or die .. forward or backward but you never get to coast ... even coonhunters live and die by that law even if they don't know it ...

---

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Dave,

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...threadid=376342

These may be exactly what you are looking for!

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
My goal is to increase my odds of recreating that one desireable combination, or close there to.

---

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Dave, you talk about "House" and "Finley River" bred dogs as being line bred. But few of them were closely related were they? I find that sometimes people assume that a line of dogs that all carry the same name or prefix have lots of common ancestors. Confusing a line of dogs all put together by one person with a line of dogs with lots of up close common ancestors.

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Joe - yes, that looks like the type of program, I was referring to.

Larry - Joe and I have had this same conversation! You can't always recreate that one cornfield race that lit the spark in your pup. Or the decision to forgo discipline or properly apply it. When you think about all the nature/nurture combinations, it's really remarkable that we have the repeatability we do!

truly - Lipper was out of Clint and Clint was out of Tom Tom, and most of them were out of Joe House's females, but whether those females were purchased or of similar lineage is beyond me. The same with many of the famous Finley River dogs. But what I was really referring to was not Joe or John's programs, but rather the old timers that bought a dog from Joe or John, avoided the "flavors of the week" and therefore have created a line-bred program based on the House or Finley River lineage. If you find a walker program, like I'm thinking of, you'll find multiple line bred generations of local dogs, going back to a famous House or Finley River dog. I'm not sure on the other breeds...

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they still had some red dogs with mcgill and timberchopper bleaskly bred dogs but i know its long gone

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quote:

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Originally posted by hillbilly56
they still had some red dogs with mcgill and timberchopper bleaskly bred dogs but i know its long gone

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Back to work so the hunting and hunts are over for now lol.
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quote:

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Originally posted by Whordel
What's old blood 56 lol?

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quote:

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Originally posted by hillbilly56
im old blood and dont move verygood so maybe i dont want that old blood in a dog we may not make it very far lol

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Back to work so the hunting and hunts are over for now lol.
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To actually answer your original question. There is a line of dogs in Texas that has been kept bred tight. Untill the last five years the last out crosses were to a daughter of mundo jr. And a son of spring creek radar. There are pictures of the dogs from this line in the late 70 s and they still look the same. They are a little slower starting some can run a track young but don't tree hard till older but 80% of them if you will stick with them. Till 3 will make a dog you are proud of.

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Don't know exactly what your looking for, but if this line of dogs I have been line breeding for over 15 yrs and Steve Brookshier has been line breeding for over 40 yrs can help anyone's kennel, I'm willing to help anyway I can.

........ ......Cooks speed
....Grntch Brookshiers Uncle Lee(Fastest drifting style track dog i ever Hunted)
.............. Backwater Kate (coon dog & puppy trainer deluxe)

Dual ch. Brookshiers Finley River Driver (2007 -1st place&high scoring walker Male sat at walker days ).

................Bark Bustin Bush (grandson Finley river Dan)
.... Wldchgrntch Finley River Sally (2 time ACHA World Champion Female)
............... Backwater Kate (coon dog & puppy trainer deluxe)

~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper

..................................GRNITECH. Logan's Wild Clover(Grandson F.R. Dan)
........................GRNITECH. Wessel's Wild Casey
..................................GRNITECH. Logan's Wild Jeanie(River Bend Flag)
............’PR” Rockdale Lone Pine Billy(Owned by Robert Jacobson)
..................................GRNITECH. Collins Hillbilly Mac Jr.(son of Hillbilly Mac)
........................NITECH. Cavitt’s Hillbilly Misty
..................................Collins’ Little Roxie(Daughter of Minklers Kansas Rock)
......”PR” Kravik’s Babe
..................................Cook’s Speed
........................GRNITECH. Brookshiers Uncle Lee
................................…Brookshier's Backwater Kate
............”PR” Brookshiers Jesse (Drivers Littermate Sister)
..................................NITECH. CH Bark Busting Bush(Grandson of F.R.Dan
........................WldchGrntch. Brookshiers Finley River Sally (2 time ACHA World Champion Female)
................................. Brookshiers Backwater Kate


-Medium size dogs, males about 58-60lbs.
-Way above average mouths
-normally bawl mouth track dogs chop mouth tree dogs,Good locates.
-Drifting style track dogs,cutting and slashing through the timber.
-Way above average track speed, with cold noses..
-a lot of heart,aim to please ,very smart coonhounds

Not a big time breeder, just a coon hunter that likes his dogs and there traits!
Good luck to you all.

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~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

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Hi,

Start with a great dog, Nt Ch. Finley River Chief. Take probably his best reproducing son, Gr. Nt. Ch. Mears' Finley River Dan and linebreed that strain for 35 years. I have kept the same traits I started with through linebreeding. That is the only way to keep it.

Outcross? One cross from disaster. 50% of what you started with is gone, jmo.

Opinions are nice. Everybody has one. The sharing of information and ideas is what has kept this country great and free.


Good Hunting,
Robert

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Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Wild Bill's Lill 21.05% reproduction record
Starke's Finley River Little Lill
Dual Gr. Ch. Wild Bill's Queen UKC RQE 112 winner 725+ 2006 UKC World Hunt qualifier
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Rattler 2
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Sadie
Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch.TrackMan's Stone Cold HTX 2009 UKC World Hunt qualifier 2009 UKC World Hunt Zone 5 Hunt 14th place 2011 UKC World Hunt qualifier
Dual Ch. PKC Ch.Track Man's Mad Dash 2007 PKC SS qualifier 2008 UKC World Hunt qualifier 2011 Ringtail Lodge Coon Club High Scoring Dog of the Year 2011 Ringtail Lodge Coon Club Final Hunt winner 2012 MCHF Youth State Championship 2nd place 2012 Ringtail Lodge Coon Club High Scoring Dog of the Year
Gr. Ch. Finley River Cadillac Jane 2006 PKC Walker Days BOSF 2006 UKC RQE 74 Ch winner 2006 Trackman Invitational Queen of Show 2007 MCHF State Hunt Ch. female winner
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Cozi
Gr Nt Ch Starke's Finley River Super Man HTX 2017 Mid Mo Coonhunters Hunt Series Champion 2018 MCHF Dick Gray Memorial Hunt High Scoring Dog and King of the Hunt 2018 Mid-Mo Coonhunters Hunt Series Champion 2018 MCHF State Final Hunt the only double cast winner Final Four 3rd place winner 2019 BBCHA Sectional Madison, MO Gr Nt Ch/ Nt Ch Cast winner and High Scoring dog 2019 BBOA Richard Casey Tribute Hunt High Scoring Dog 750+ Thursday night and 825+ Friday night 2019 MCHF State Final Hunt Final Four 2nd place winner 2020 UKC World Hunt Qualifier at Marshall, MO March 21st

Dual Gr Ch Wild Bill's April 2016 UKC RQE 97 Ch winner

Gr. Ch. Starke's Finley River Jane 2006 UKC RQE 74 Gr Ch winner
Gr. Ch. Starke's Finley River Sugar 2012 MCHF Dick Gray Summer Classic Ch of Ch winner
Starke's Finley River Jake
Hoghill's Finley River Rip
Hoghill's Finley River Candie

Starke's Finley River Stubbie
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Tuff
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Steel
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Fame

Starke's Finley River Ramblin Jane
Gr Ch Starke's Finley River Ramblin Iron Man
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Bat Man

Starke's Finley River Ramblin Tanna
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Lightning
Starke"s Finley River Ramblin John Henry
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Dan
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Sister
Starke's Finley River Diamond
Starke's Finley River General Robert E Lee

Starke's Finley River Stormy
Clark's Finley River Spot PKC cast / money winner
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Sage

Starke's Finley River Ramblin Paige

Starke's Finley River Ramblin Lou HTX passed times 1 Littermate of
PKC Gold Ch Gr Nt Ch Snitch, mother of Batman

Gr Ch. Starke's Finley River Ramblin Emma HTX
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Sugar Boy
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Randi
Starke's Finley River Ramblin Little Emma

Gr.Ch. Starke's Table Rock Jewell 2007 RQE 5 BOSF winner 2007 MCHF State Hunt BOSF winner 2009 RQE 28 Best of Show female winner 2009 MCHF State Hunt Ch of Ch Female winner 2010 MCHF State Hunt Gr Ch winner and Queen of Show 2010 Alan Reinkemeyer Memorial Queen of Show 2011 Gr Ch Louisiana State Championship 2012 NE Missouri Black & Tan Sectional Gr. Ch. female 2012 MCHF Spring Classic Gr Ch female 2012 UKC RQE 87 Gr Ch winner 2012 NE Missouri Treeing Walker Sectional Gr Ch winner 2012 MCHF Dick Gray Summer Classic Gr. Ch. winner 2012 Lee Crawford Invitational qualifier 2012 Purina Nationals qualifier 2012 UKC Current Top 10 2012 MCHF Missouri State Show Dog of the Year

Gr Ch Little Walnut Queen Bathsheba 2011 SWTWA BFOS and Queen of Show 2011 MCHA State Hunt BFOS 2011 Oklahoma Federation State Hunt and Show BFOS 2012 MCHF State Hunt Ch Female and Queen of Show 2012 Oklahoma Federation State Hunt and Show Ch. Female 2012 Purina Nationals qualifier 2013 TWB&F Walker Days Gr. Ch. female and Queen of Show 2013 Kentucky State Championship Gr. Ch. female and Opposite Sex winner 2013 Purina Nationals qualifier 2013 ACHA World Hunt and Show BFOS 2014 Purina Nationals qualifier 2014 Lee Crawford Invitaional qualifier
Gr Ch Little Walnut Zipporah

Gr Ch A & B Preacher 2012 Saluda Days King of Show 2013 MCHF State Hunt Ch. winner and King of Show 2013 MO Governor's Cup State Hunt Ch. winner and King of Show 2014 RQE #11 Gr. Ch. winner 2014 Purina Nationals qualifier 2014 SWTWA Gr. Ch. winner 2014 Lee Crawford Invitational qualifier 2014 Kansas State Championship Gr. Ch. winner both days 2014 UKC's Top 10 List 2014 Purina's Bench Show Top Ten List 2014 MCHF Summer Classic Gr. Ch. winner both days 2014 MCHF Summer Classic King of Show 2014 MCHF State Hunt and Show GR. Ch. Winner Friday 2014 MCHF Missouri State Show Dog of the Year 2015 Purina Nationals qualifier 2015 Kansas State Championship Friday Gr Ch winner 2016 Purina Nationals qualifier

Gr Ch Table Rock Reverend Mundo Hawk 2010 MCHF State Hunt Best Male of Show 2011 MCHF Spring Classic Gr. Ch. male and King of Show 2011 UKC RQE 88 Gr Ch male 2012 UKC RQE 87 Gr Ch male 2012 NE Missouri Treeing Walker Sectional Gr. Ch. male and King Of Show 2012 MCHF Dick Gray Summer Classic Gr. Ch. male 2012 Lee Crawford Invitational qualifier


"Fast is Good. Accuracy is Everything." Wyatt Earp

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Robert you know what dogs I'm talking about. Jewell's mom pearl ruby and roxy were all bred to Luger and in Teddy's words were that is enough outcross to last his lifetime. Plus about 15 frozen breedings on Luger will keep it were I like it.

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To Quote Joe
"I've learned that breeding for bloodline will indeed lead you down the path to diminishing return. There I said it. If you are breeding ONLY for bloodlines, it's a losing battle....HOWEVER, if you are line breeding and still being selective in what crosses you make, and are being critical of WHY you are making those crosses I will always believe you are on the right path."
I've waited a long time to hear somebody else say that. I hear so many people considering the names on a pedigree to determine a bloodline when instead they would be better served to abserve the traits and maintain the line of traits instead. I have line bred what I consider the "House" traits for 35 years outcrossing periodically adding traits that I desire. Many people try to breed this line by adding the word "House's"
in front of a dogs name.

Joe, If you dislike chop mouth track dogs as much as I do, why would you ever consider adding to your dogs?

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I'm not a breeder by no means. But by all the folks including me I'm pretty satisfied with ole turpins insain cain. That's pretty new.

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