Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Perrinton, Michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by Ptmike
Don't be a cry baby scratching dogs for adjusting a little bit on the tree. I would never scratch a dog unless it pure mean. Most of the Time I give the handler the chance to withdraw

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Ohio
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lets just put a little to what if its the judges dog that attacked another dog and the judge said it was the other dog attacked his on a 3 dog cast the third handler didn't see anything is the judge the full authority on the scratching of dogs or are the other handlers.

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only 2 dogs on the tree don't know the agresser the answer should be 4

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
LOL that will work. I've also seen a dog accused of being mean that didn't have a mean hair on it, but they needed some kind of a excuse for why they couldn't beat the dog! Its dosen't take but a couple of trips and everyone knows what dog is really mean and they are normally accompanied by a mean handler.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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One man's "won't tolerate rude behavior" can be another man's mean. Just as some hunters think that a little scuffling or "adjusting for position" is natural while others think they should be scratched. In my opinion "adjusting for position" is just one dog trying to bully another dog off of a tree without actually fighting. But when the other dog won't take it then you have a fight. In this instance, who is the aggressor? Is it the bully or the dog who wouldn't take being pushed around and jumped on him?

George, if the cast can't agree on who the aggressor is, then they are both scratched. This is a ploy that some handlers use. No one wants to scratch their own dog when it is not the aggressor so neither dog gets scratched. A lot of handlers will say, "if you are going to scratch my dog, then you have to scratch yours also". Usually the only solution is to bite the bullet and scratch both dogs.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-26-2018 at 02:32 PM

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

We all know if you walk up and 2 dogs are fighting they get scratched. The only thing that complicates the question that was asked is it left out a major factor. The question didn't give all the info. If its a 2 dog cast and you hear the fight then they are gone. If its a 3 dog cast and you here a fight, you cant scratch them. You don't know if 2 were fighting or all three. That's the reason you have to know where the rest of the dogs in the cast are before you can scratch dogs for a fight that you hear and don't see.

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What if there are only 2 dogs left in the cast and there treed and a fight breaks out at the tree but one dog keeps treeing

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Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

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Registered: May 2015
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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wbond
What if there are only 2 dogs left in the cast and there treed and a fight breaks out at the tree but one dog keeps treeing

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Registered: Feb 2012
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i don't like grouchy dogs but i just can't resist sharing this story. i was going to the local hunts a few years ago and i had heard about 2 dogs that drew out together that didn't normally fight but when they drew out together these 2 dogs just couldn't get along. sure enough i drew out with them 1 night on a 4 dog cast. it wasn't long and all 4 dogs stuck in on the same track and the 2 dogs that didn't get along together started treeing and was declared tree about 150 yards away my dog and the other dog in the cast keep tracking on down the hollow. as we all sat there listening to the dogs, 4 handlers and 2 spectators we could hear them 2 dogs at that tree just growling and fighting up a storm. not 1 peep was made from any of us, you could have heard a pin drop for most of the 5 minutes. after the 5 was up we walked to that tree like no one heard a thing and shined that slick tree with no leaves on it that those 2 dogs fought over. wow i never seen or heard anything like it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

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Registered: Aug 2004
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I have a friend that had a walker female that would sound like she was fighting when she treed by herself. Another dog had to sure have a lot of nerve to come in and tree with her. She wouldn't grab them but she would sure scare the hell out of them.

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Lets say we did start scratching entire casts for fighting when the aggressor is unknown like we are supposed to do. Do you think anything bad would happen? I don't

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Lets say we did start scratching entire casts for fighting when the aggressor is unknown like we are supposed to do. Do you think anything bad would happen? I don't

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some dogs are so mean they will fight with themselves.

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#4 is definitely the right answer but one thing that know one has talked about is the judges responsibility to find the aggressor. I've heard and seen a lot of rumble and growling in the woods at night and a lot of dogs are good at hiding it when you walk in on them but I would say if you give that mean dog a few seconds when you get to the tree I would guess around 75% of the time they will show you which one is the aggressive dog and you can give punishment where it's due. You can say a judge or who ever should sacrifice to expose that one mean dog but that's just not right especially since you could draw the same dog out in local hunts for several years. I have seen some that chase dogs through the woods and wouldn't even let them get treed. Now those are the ones that are hard to catch

Last edited by MOX on 06-27-2018 at 11:33 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by MOX
#4 is definitely the right answer but one thing that know one has talked about is the judges responsibility to find the aggressor. I've heard and seen a lot of rumble and growling in the woods at night and a lot of dogs are good at hiding it when you walk in on them but I would say if you give that mean dog a few seconds when you get to the tree I would guess around 75% of the time they will show you which one is the aggressive dog and you can give punishment where it's due. You can say a judge or who ever should sacrifice to expose that one mean dog but that's just not right especially since you could draw the same dog out in local hunts for several years. I have seen some that chase dogs through the woods and wouldn't even let them get treed. Now those are the ones that are hard to catch

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The 80% are obviously the ones who answered correctly. As often as we have covered dog fighting over the years, it bothers me a bit to see that a good number of hunters still think you have to physically see dogs fighting in order to scratch them for fighting. That is just not true.

How are nite hunts judged? By your ears and eyes, right? A great deal of judging is actually done with your ears. Recognizing a dog fight, when you're not within sight, is one of those.

Generally, experienced hunters can easily tell the difference between a little face barking or growling and an actual fight in progress, just by hearing it. Much the same as a dog that is declared treed but is not actually treed, or has went back on trail. When you have an obvious fight, then there should be action taken, if you can determine who was involved.

Rule 6 clearly states that when you have a dog fight you scratch the aggressor only. As several have already mentioned, the aggressor, otherwise defined as the one who started the fight, is not always the one "winning" the fight when you arrive at the scene. Therefore, often times you can't come to a conclusion on who the aggressor is/was when you didn't see it. So, in accordance with Rule 6, you scratch the dogs involved. Sure, one of the scratched dogs may not be the one with the temperamental issues but taking a scratch to insure the insti"gator" doesn't get away with it, is deemed as the better option.

Sometimes you'll have a situation where you have more then two dogs at the scene and you can't clearly determine who was actually involved. However, sometimes sound judgement suggests otherwise. One such example might be where an identified dog continues to hammer away (treeing) while the fight is in progress. This might easily be determined as dogs so and so as the ones involved. If so, as the judge, make that call so long as you are using sound judgement and there's no doubt. Otherwise, more times than not, you really can't determine which two were actually involved. In that case you simply shouldn't scratch any dog.

Our forefathers obviously had the foresight to put this rule in place for good reason. They believed that temperament issues are hereditary and it is not a desired trait in coonhounds to be passing on down the road. In other words, the intent was to keep it out of gene pools. Today, you hear a lot of smack talk where some tend to glorify such a trait or that you need a dog who will fight in order to stay hooked with those that are ill. Truth is; who in their right mind really likes an ill-tempered hound? Wouldn't it be a lot more pleasurable for everyone if "illness" in coonhounds didn't even exist? As an advocate for breeding good hunting stock, it's my opinion that we're only shooting ourselves in the foot with that mentality. We are doing ourselves and the coonhound breeds an injustice by not policing temperament in nite hunts. In doing so, sometimes those involved get caught up in the process but it's the better alternative.

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Registered: Feb 2005
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Question for you Allen ,
Why is face barking allowed ?
Dogs engaged in it are clearly interfering with each other and displaying aggressive behavior. We
I don't need no one else's opinion .

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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On the topic of determining the aggressor, I want to add this as briefly mentioned in several posts. I hear it a lot where someone calls in to complain that their dog was wrongfully scratched for fighting when the aggressor should have been easy to determine.

One example is this. They had an obvious dog fight and when the arrive at the tree they find A on top of B, with B getting his butt handed to him. In their mind, A is the aggressor because he is the one on top and putting it to B. Well...... A may be handing it to B when you got there but by the intent of the rule, that does not mean A was the aggressor (the one who started it). Maybe so but he could just as well be the one who got jumped on and turns out to be the "bigger dog" when it comes to retaliation or self-defense.

Another example is where two dogs were found rolling and you don't know who started it. After separating the two its decided to turn both dogs back loose on the tree and watch the two. The dog who now throws the first punch will be identified as the aggressor!

This tells you absolutely nothing when it comes to determining the original instigator of the fight. All this does is tells you who might be starting fight #2. Again, it might very well be the same dog, but keep in mind, there's a good chance the non-instigator is pretty charged up at this point and might very well continue on with handing it to the dog who started the fight to begin with. Point is, rule on the situation you had. Not on a different one you are trying to start.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Question for you Allen ,
Why is face barking allowed ?
Dogs engaged in it are clearly interfering with each other and displaying aggressive behavior. We
I don't need no one else's opinion .

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Ok Allen one last clarification. A and B are treed in and a fight breaks out. C was in the area but no one knows where he is now. Can you scratch A and B not knowing where C is? In my thought process you don't know if C is in on the fight. Just because you do not here A or B barking treed doesn't mean they are fighting. I've walked into dogs treed with 2 fighting and 2 standing there watching. I think it was Todd that first said we could scratch them for hearing a fight but you had to be absolutely sure where the rest of the dogs in the cast are. If I remember he also said if there was more than 2 dogs on the tree you couldn't do it.

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Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
Ok Allen one last clarification. A and B are treed in and a fight breaks out. C was in the area but no one knows where he is now. Can you scratch A and B not knowing where C is? In my thought process you don't know if C is in on the fight. Just because you do not here A or B barking treed doesn't mean they are fighting. I've walked into dogs treed with 2 fighting and 2 standing there watching. I think it was Todd that first said we could scratch them for hearing a fight but you had to be absolutely sure where the rest of the dogs in the cast are. If I remember he also said if there was more than 2 dogs on the tree you couldn't do it.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Allen just for clarification does or does not the hunting judge still have the authority to go into a tree with his light out to catch a polished aggressor ( light broke ) at the tree.




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