UKC Forums - Nite Hunt Scenario

	UKC Website :: Hunting Ops :: All-Breed Sports :: Registration :: UKC Online Store

UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0

UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > Nite Hunt Scenario

Pages (7): « 1 2 [3] 4 5 » ... Last »

Last Thread Next Thread

Author

Thread

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This one is a little complicated. Right up front, I don't think believe 4(j) can be applied here because that rule applies to trees and a live trap is not a tree, it is a place of refuge. To further complicate, it cannot be scored as a place of refuge if it has a coon. If it has a coon, everything is deleted. But in this case, since there is no coon, it is scored as a place of refuge. Minus the dogs declared treed, circle the dog handled at the scene. That's how I see it but I've been wrong before.

If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER, 2025 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 07:00 PM

Click here to Send Redneck Mafia a Private Message

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

When it's all said and done, that's prolly the right answer right there.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 07:19 PM

Click here to Send JiM a Private Message

Charles Pullen
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1795

Well I guess it's my turn to be wrong . At first I agreed with Redneck Mafia but the coon wasn't seen ( not if ) . So therefore it has to be scored. As far as a place of refuge , lol . That's a place where the coon could be hiding to me so I don't see that . So I would score it as A -225 , B -75 , C - 100 . Cut dogs loose back in for next available points which is 50 & 25 .

But the big question that's not answered is was the honey bun white icing or glazed ? That could make a difference.

__________________
Delete

Last edited by Charles Pullen on 03-04-2018 at 07:29 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 07:27 PM

Click here to Send Charles Pullen a Private Message

jawscardodger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1022

So your saying a trap has its own rules that don't pertain to any other scenario.

__________________
If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 07:28 PM

Click here to Send jawscardodger a Private Message

jkidd1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

Would you still delete if there was a possum in the trap?

__________________
AFTER DARK KENNELS

JEREMY KIDD
765-520-1552

*females*
GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
(Noct. Style X Southern Sky)

GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
(Wild Card X Jr's Janey)

NITECH �PR� REBELS STYLISH MOJA
(Ol Souths Stylish Rebel X Janey)

AFTER DARK�S PURDY PENNY
(Big $$ X Janit)

NITECH' SEVEN MILE SLOOPY(R.I.P.)
(Skipper x Big time Trixie)

Proud UNION JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN
https://i.postimg.cc/654pWfzm/IMG-1920.png
I.B.E.W. LOCAL 1393

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 07:45 PM

Click here to Send jkidd1 a Private Message

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

Would you still delete if there was a possum in the trap?

Absolutely, My dog your dog anyones dog. The people saying that its different because there isnt a coon in the trap are completely wrong. If you cant gain points on a coon being there you cant loose points because its empty or be scratched because it had a possum in it. Its just a bad break for someone no matter whats there. Its deleted automatic grab em and cut back loose.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:03 PM

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

Dog A 100 strike 125 tree both deleted
Dog B -75 tree cause you can't prove where he was treed at and left his 75 strike is still open
Dog C 50 strike deleted
Re-cut Dog A and C as soon as dog B opens.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:10 PM

jawscardodger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1022

Your saying if you can't get plus points then you can not take minus points. I don't think this is a ukc rule unless I missed it somewhere.If so where is this rule?

__________________
If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:13 PM

sleepy head
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

Red, would it change the scoring any if for some reason the trap door is open and what ever game is there is pulled out by the dogs?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:15 PM

Click here to Send sleepy head a Private Message

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Red, would it change the scoring any if for some reason the trap door is open and what ever game is there is pulled out by the dogs?

Heck ya then it isn't a trap it is game caught on the ground plus their strikes and delete their trees and go on. But if it is in the trap it doesn't matter if is Jesus, 10 coons a possum a bobcat it is deleted if it is in that trap and they are barking at it.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:25 PM

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
So your saying a trap has its own rules that don't pertain to any other scenario.

Yes.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:27 PM

jkidd1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:37 PM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

The UKC rules are not always equitable. Why do they minus a dog that is treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives at a slick but a dog that does the very same thing after the judge arrives gets circled strike? Why do we minus strike for a dog that covers late on a coon but circle strike if that dog covers late on a slick?

Last edited by JiM on 03-04-2018 at 08:53 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:50 PM

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I like the thought of deleting the whole mess, rather than minusing one dog for being slick then not holding the other one to the same standard.

In the scenario here the only dog that takes minus would be dog B that had treed in and wasn't treed anywhere was still showing trail when cast arrived.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 08:53 PM

yadkintar
Banned

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

In theory with the honeybun involved it essentially is a coon feeder people hunt on feeders all the time maybe the dogs just run the track the wrong way lol.

Ohhhhhhh lurdy me !!!

Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 09:02 PM

Click here to Send yadkintar a Private Message

Redneck Mafia
UKC Moderator

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Seneca, Mo
Posts: 5932

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
In theory with the honeybun involved it essentially is a coon feeder people hunt on feeders all the time maybe the dogs just run the track the wrong way lol.

Ohhhhhhh lurdy me !!!

Tar

Undercover investigation .. the guy that pays to hunt others dogs arrived before the dogs at the cage and ate the honey bun before the dogs got there 2 dogs fell for the empty trap the bluebone experienced at tracking donuts was taking the track on out in search of the honey bun

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 09:29 PM

yadkintar
Banned

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

No it said the honeybun was still there. So the coon wouldn't have been in the trap long. I can eat one in two bites !! I won't tolerate a dog that back tracks a honeybun lol.

Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 09:36 PM

jkidd1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The UKC rules are not always equitable. Why do they minus a dog that is treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives at a slick but a dog that does the very same thing after the judge arrives gets circled strike? Why do we minus strike for a dog that covers late on a coon but circle strike if that dog covers late on a slick?

I agree JiM, I've wondered on those myself. I just feel like in the situation if you minused Dog A, then you had to give it to Dog C, per rule 4(j). I'm still learning every time I pay that entry fee, thats why I like these ruling questions, they're free lol.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 09:42 PM

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

Once a dog has been treed the only way for it not to be accountable for those points is if the coon is caught or in a trap. What you are dealing with here are dogs barking at a cage not a trapped coon, that changes the whole situation. No different than if it was a leg hold trap, you cant plus a coon in one but what do you thing will happen if a treed dog is found barking at one?

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 10:45 PM

Click here to Send joey a Private Message

Vic Stoll
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 1775

How would this differ from a dog found treeing on a tight fence? No place of refuge there either?

__________________
Home of:
A couple blue haired potlickers

Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky�s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 11:05 PM

Click here to Send Vic Stoll a Private Message

Philip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

I was on the line if there was a caught coon, no tree points awarded. But no coon. So minus A strike delete tree. Minus B tree cause was off trailing. C what to do with C minus strike, no coon at end of trail.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-04-2018 11:30 PM

Click here to Send Philip a Private Message

Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
If there was a coon there it would have been deleted. With no way to gain points there also is no way to take minus, points should have been deleted. It is not a place of refuge it is a trap any other object is seen as a place of refuge or a tree and scored as such but not a trap.

This may be the correct answer but your reasoning would be wrong.

If it is the correct answer it is because of the specific ruling in the Advisor about traps. I would have to see the wording to have an opinion on how it applied here because one word or a comma can change the whole thing.

Your theory of no way to gain points means no way to minus points is incorrect and is not a rule in UKC. One example is a dog that trees after the 5. There is absolutely no way he can gain points BUT if he is at a slick tree treeing when the judge arrives he gets assigned the next available tree position and minused. He couldn't gain anything but by rules he got minused more.

However your point about being a specific rule about traps is absolutely correct, any time there is a rule about a specific thing that rule takes precedence over other more general rules so depending on the wording of the Advisor on traps you are very likely to be correct to delete the whole thing.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-05-2018 01:02 AM

Click here to Send Rip a Private Message

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
This may be the correct answer but your reasoning would be wrong.

If it is the correct answer it is because of the specific ruling in the Advisor about traps. I would have to see the wording to have an opinion on how it applied here because one word or a comma can change the whole thing.

Your theory of no way to gain points means no way to minus points is incorrect and is not a rule in UKC. One example is a dog that trees after the 5. There is absolutely no way he can gain points BUT if he is at a slick tree treeing when the judge arrives he gets assigned the next available tree position and minused. He couldn't gain anything but by rules he got minused more.

However your point about being a specific rule about traps is absolutely correct, any time there is a rule about a specific thing that rule takes precedence over other more general rules so depending on the wording of the Advisor on traps you are very likely to be correct to delete the whole thing.

The intent of the trap rule is the coon cant get away so it isn't fair chase. That doesn't apply to there not being anything in the trap. They are still accountable for their tree points.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-05-2018 02:11 AM

Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by joey
The intent of the trap rule is the coon cant get away so it isn't fair chase. That doesn't apply to there not being anything in the trap. They are still accountable for their tree points.

That may be correct, but it depends on the wording of the trap rule as noted above.

However, if it were that way you still could not assign tree points to the other dog because it wasn't a tree and the Advisor has already ruled assigning tree points and the stationary rule both only apply to trees.

As for intent, intent of the rule never matters only the wording. That's why we had to reword the dog struck when shut out on strike otherwise they had no way to be minused for strike. That wasn't the intent but that is how it was worded so we had to live with it until it was changed.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Last edited by Rip on 03-05-2018 at 02:48 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

03-05-2018 02:45 AM