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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Mark, you are right, they do hunt in a pack, have a natural instinct and learn from doing. But their mother "starts" them, I think. Of course, I am no coyote trainer and I have been wrong before (once).

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-14-2016 at 05:16 PM

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02-14-2016 04:59 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
So in theory....one could take a just born coyote pup and stick put it on a good coonhound who is suckling a new born litter and let it grow up with those pups and hunt it with the coonhound mother as it grows up and expect the coyote pup to run and tree after the mother shows it how...correct?
I bet a dog like that would have a killer locate!

Hey...I bet I could get a lot of first strikes when a train sounds off in the distance too

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Shane Maxey
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Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
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(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
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02-14-2016 05:10 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

When I was much younger, I had a dog that just squeaked or squealed on track so I got a lot of first/second strikes. But I don't know how that happened because she was almost silent on track.

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02-14-2016 05:20 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Im sure "will power" may have had a lot to do with it. Come to think of it Tony has a lot of will power too.....

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02-14-2016 05:26 PM

elvis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Ya...in those big money hunts....the cast win is what pays....its an example of the rules shaping how dogs are bred. When the rules changed to reward dogs who treed first and punish the others if they dont get there within 30 seconds to a minute....the goals changed for breeders. There can be only one dog first to a tree...so guys had to breed and train for dogs who would go and get their own first tree somewhere else. Not sure if its good or bad...but if you want to win in pkc and other hunts with a countdown on the tree...you have to have a dog that will do it at least some of the time...

a lot of truth right there.
if you have a dog that will fly thru the country to get by itself and ambush easy coon you will win. if you can get him to run his mouth while hes doing it you will win big. Big winners get bred to even though they may be pitiful track dogs.

people have figured out that its much easier to breed and train for loners than it is to breed better track dogs which is what it takes to win when dogs compete for the same coon. Its rare to see a great track dog anymore.

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02-14-2016 05:27 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Shane, Doc says that Tony is "sassy and creative". Now you are saying that he has a lot of "will power". He sounds like he is a real neat guy. Maybe he should run for President. Those Texans seem to make pretty good ones. He is starting to get pretty famous.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-14-2016 at 05:40 PM

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02-14-2016 05:31 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

There is a fine line between famous...and infamous...lol
As an outlaw...he always seems to be stradling it

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-14-2016 at 05:58 PM

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02-14-2016 05:51 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Mark, you are right, they do hunt in a pack, have a natural instinct and learn from doing. But their mother "starts" them, I think. Of course, I am no coyote trainer and I have been wrong before (once).

Was just trying to use a example is all Richard I don't know ether
But I have started enuff young coon hounds over the years that there is nothing like a self starter
Just so happens my top five I've ever hunted where this way and thats the kind I want and don't think I should have to teach them to do what they was bred to do find track and tree game had way to many that showed me great things in controlled invierment to only lack key traits to be a top hound after months of work and time
Ill take a great natural athlete over a well coached mediocre one every time jmo
And I'm lazy 😎

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grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
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02-14-2016 06:05 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
Was just trying to use a example is all Richard I don't know ether
But I have started enuff young coon hounds over the years that there is nothing like a self starter
Just so happens my top five I've ever hunted where this way and thats the kind I want and don't think I should have to teach them to do what they was bred to do find track and tree game had way to many that showed me great things in controlled invierment to only lack key traits to be a top hound after months of work and time
Ill take a great natural athlete over a well coached mediocre one every time jmo
And I'm lazy 😎

Doing it in the wild...unscripted and un aided is a whole different thing than drags and cage coons.One has to do with natural ability...the other is an attempt to "train" a dog to do something that often isnt coming out naturally with props and situations it will rarely ever encounter in the wild. Ive seen dogs that it didnt come naturally to...make coon dogs after a lot of "training" with props...but what you "train" into a dog does not pass on to its offspring. Thats why I like to use dogs in our program that showed natural ability from the start...before they had to be trained to do it. I think most coon hounds have a certain amout of natural ability they are born with...but some lines have a lot more in certain areas than others. I always like to see something natural show through before I start trying to do any "training"..... Some " trainers" just start out with props and keep using them ( and over use them in my opinion) as long as they have the dogs there. You dont see many dogs that go down that road show natural independence because the trainer altered the natural path the pup may have taken on its own if given the chance.... Dogs started and finished in a pack usually end up as pack animals and those rarely win in top level competition. Some seem to like that type ...but im not one of them. I like to see natural ability from the start and natural independence develope as they build their confidence while being hunted alone. Once that becomes habit and they know they dont need another dog to lead them to a coon or do any of the work ....then they are ready to start competing in a " pack " (cast)

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02-14-2016 06:48 PM

chrissweet
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Watertown, NY
Posts: 259

I want one

If there are any of these naturals that are spoke of here I would like to buy one. Every dog no matter what breed or what game they're hunting I've had to train. It sure would be nice to get one I don't have to do anything with other than take it hunting. Cash in hand. A man certainly would guarantee a pup of this caliber I would imagine

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02-14-2016 11:26 PM

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mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Re: I want one

quote:
Originally posted by chrissweet
If there are any of these naturals that are spoke of here I would like to buy one. Every dog no matter what breed or what game they're hunting I've had to train. It sure would be nice to get one I don't have to do anything with other than take it hunting. Cash in hand. A man certainly would guarantee a pup of this caliber I would imagine

if I could see in the future and new what litter and witch ones from a litter wil be the naturals I'd shore help you out but I don't have that ability
Only way I have found the ones I've had was take them hunting and in just a few drops there doing it
I've had five in 35 years so I'd say there pretty rare
Now I never said I didn't have to do some training I just said I didn't have to show them before I hunted them what I wanted them to do find a coon track trail a coon track to a tree and tree till I got there they had never seen a coon that I know of before they treed there own coon
Wish they all was like that but there not but when you get one they usually turn out to be special in the timber and breeding pen
Sounds like tink was like this and the last one I had was her half brother who died young

Last edited by mmarshall on 02-15-2016 at 02:05 AM

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02-15-2016 01:59 AM

chrissweet
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Watertown, NY
Posts: 259

Mr. Marshall

I would love to pick your brains on training sometime. I've obviously been training wrong. I didn't know there was more than track n tree with a coonhound. I've only had coonhounds for the last few years. Have always raised and trained labs and probably ten years with running hounds. Figured coonhounds can't be too difficult. Obviously I'm mistaken. Or maybe " natural to one is not the same as natural to another " kinda like started and finished its not always the same. But nonetheless I want the breed to move forward and if there is a line like this or that throws a better percentage of pups that track n tree naturally with no training by man or hound. That surely is what the breed should be after in a whole. Wait what did you mean when you said you have to train? If your not training track n tree what are you training. Again probably easier to chat on the phone sometime. Thank you for your help.

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02-15-2016 02:37 AM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Pm me your # some time
Train to lead in the woods to come when called
Off game and so on

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02-15-2016 02:46 AM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Mark, obviously I love the coyote anology, "you don't have to train a coyote" or I wouldn't be giving you a hard time.

Mr Sweet, "cash in hand"??? What would you give for one? Getting one to track/tree is only half of the battle. You can learn a lot about training from Mr Marshall, nothing about handling but a lot about training. Usually his fellow cast members have to get together and call his dog and find his coons for him. But he is excellant at calling his dog into him and leading and loading her.

"In the wild" can be a lot different in different parts of the country. "In the wild" in some places means riding around until you see 3 or 4 coons run out of a cut corn field and then turning that "natural" pup loose on them. In other areas of the country it means turning that natural pup loose and walking him/her out into the wild where there is a bucket. To some it means turning a trapped coon loose "into the wild" and then turning the pup loose. And then to some it means turning the pup loose and having him/her go 800-900 yds to find an old cold track.
In my opinion with limited experience, having a "natural" starting pup just makes it a lot easier and gets you real excited real quick. It doesn't always equate to ending up with a better dog in the long run. But then I am not much of a pup "trainer". I mostly just turn them loose and let them go "a lot". Once they get started then I sell/send them to someone to train them. That is the hard part.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-15-2016 at 02:29 PM

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02-15-2016 02:16 PM