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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Outcrosses of any sort logically always seemed to me as risky that one or more undesired traits of that other line would surface at the same or higher probability than the desired trait you are trying to add. However, One thing I expected when coming into reds is that lines have been better protected, meaning it was more about traits and less about just backing a GRNT female up to any GRNT male way back when that muddied up the water. The majority of the pedigrees I followed for so many years in the walker breed have now been lost in translation, I can't tell who's on first and what's on second most of the time.

Anyhow, my first sentence, explain your thoughts Allen, Shane, and anyone else. How do you not fear the 1-2 major holes 2-3 generations back won't take hold in place of what you wanted to add?

You really don't Adam. One of the issues we have in this breed is that most people breeding haven't hunted with many of the dogs in the second or third generation or even fourth generation to know the traits that line of dogs carries. I've hunted with many of the dogs that today's Redbones go back to so I understand the results we are getting today. They are very predictable.

I'm coming from a different place than most people in this breed. I owned two freaks in the past that I would love to own again. There was absolutely nothing I wanted to change about them. I just wanted them to live forever or to create more like them. They already proved they could consistently win against the best of the other breeds and they dominated in their prime. They gave 200% every time i turned them loose. I was truely blessed!

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

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02-02-2016 08:46 AM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
I think that heavy line breeding is what has held this breed back for years. After all, aren't we all looking for that "Freak". Heck you even bought one Allen, and it's been your number winning dog in your kennel. If you look at the pedigrees of some of the biggest winning $KC dogs they are not line bred more of "winner" bred. I do agree you may get a lot of the "same" characteristics with line breeding. But I don't think the "same" redbone characteristics have been in very many $kc top twenties of the world,national, or superstakes finals lately. I know I would love to take 1 freak out of a litter, than 5 or 6 of that same ol stuff.

Maybe! It's definitely a numbers game. When you have a top reproducing Walker dog that can get 1000 pups out there in a few years, there's a much better chance of getting a freak or two that can compete at a high level. We don't hear about the number of dogs that don't make it out of any certain dog. We only hear about the ones that make it.

All I can say is good luck breeding for the freaks that can compete at that level. Most are discovered at 2-4 years of age and bought. You would have to make a lot of crosses to find one that can consistently win against those top $KC dogs every week. Nobody has the resources to raise every pup from a litter and train them and follow them to 2-3 years of age to see if they have what it takes to beat that caliber of dog. Producing a dog that can win a major $ hunt is like winning the lottery. Best you can do is get them into the best hands you can and hope that if they turn out to be that caliber of dog and come up for sale, you can afford to buy it back or partner on it.

Last edited by ahallada on 02-02-2016 at 11:56 PM

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02-02-2016 08:59 AM

Tony Dominguez
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Jefferson,Tx
Posts: 1108

I'd say we'd all have a better chance at comepeting BIG in ANY registry if we trained to win & set are standards high! A lot has to do with breeding but A TON has to do with how 1 is hunted, I think... The folks that spend several hours of sleepless nights & hunt 1 the right way normally have better odds, not the folks that set behind the computer hoping 1 magically appears lol

__________________
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407 E. Clarksville st
Jefferson, Tx 75657
903-650-4495 call/txt anytime
Banshee Coon Squaller
Eukanuba Dog food

Redbone:
All Grand Outlaw G-Man
GRNITECH
GRAND SHOW CH
CHKC GRCH (all time $ leader)
PKC PLATINUM CH (all time $ leader)
2016 RESERVE FALL SUPER STAKE CH (only redbone to ever make the final 4)

Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
2018 top 16 PKC redbone breed
2018 Top 16 PA state race
2019 National Redbone days Champion

Walker:
UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Frost Bite Zoey

UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Dirty Little Tramp
Russ Myer hunt winner $20,000
Final 4 PKC super stakes

Past:
GOLD CH GRCH GRNITECH Classy Cali
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' Outlaw Jack
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Apache Man
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Famous Outlaw Ann
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Tree Burning Moses

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02-02-2016 09:17 AM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
I'd say we'd all have a better chance at comepeting BIG in ANY registry if we trained to win & set are standards high! A lot has to do with breeding but A TON has to do with how 1 is hunted, I think... The folks that spend several hours of sleepless nights & hunt 1 the right way normally have better odds, not the folks that set behind the computer hoping 1 magically appears lol

You can't polish a turd!

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02-02-2016 09:28 AM

Tony Dominguez
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Jefferson,Tx
Posts: 1108

I've seen a couple people's duds turn into good ones after COONHUNTERS got them.

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02-02-2016 09:58 AM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Jmo it boiles down to if you want to strike out a 1000 times for every home run (out cross) then strike out a 1000 more times or load the bases and hope for a grand slam (line breeding) then loading the bases again waiting on another grand slam
Freaks very seldom reproduce freaks but one side of a freaks ped is most always a product of line breeding when the freak is bred back to the line bred half the bases load up very quickly in my exsterence in several breeds

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

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02-02-2016 01:27 PM

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Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Allen, something I have learned thus far is redbone lines (at least the ones I have messed with and hunted, which isn't all that long) is they have fewer major holes, the type holes I personally HATE. Now I have seen a couple things I wish were different, especially in my corner of the map, but honestly for the most part I have been relieved at what I've witnessed.

And as for the freaks, we've owned 1 I'd put against anything. Bred her twice, kept a good # and kept up with most all pups...the majority was subpar. Common sense told me her clone could not be made and after 2 attempts it was proven.

My world is a bit different than some, and so are my priorities. I want to win, and I like to compete, but first and foremost I want my 2 boys to find the fire I've always had, and the redbones are not letting me down so far. We can still win AND have fun during the week.

So to all the breeders, keep up the great work and don't screw it up because I don't want to go searching again! 😆

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02-02-2016 01:40 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Outcrosses of any sort logically always seemed to me as risky......
Anyhow, my first sentence, explain your thoughts Allen, Shane, and anyone else. How do you not fear the 1-2 major holes 2-3 generations back won't take hold in place of what you wanted to add?

The answer to that is very simple. Don't breed dogs with major "holes".
It all comes down to..."Do you want one great dog or a bunch of good dogs"? Do you want a bunch of dogs that can get to the World Finals or do you want a World Champion? But if you want that World Champion, you have to realize that you are going to have to go through a bunch of culls to get there. Do you really have that much time? You are not going to linebreed a World Champion. But to get that World Champion you need to linebreed one or both of the parents and then outcross them. Whether you prefer linebreeding or outcrossing depends on what kind of gambler you are. Do you like to play the odds or go for broke?
Also how far ahead are you looking? If you want to establish a line or have a breeding program then you need to linebreed. If you just want that "once in a lifetime" hound then you should consider outcrossing.
But then that is just what everyone above has been saying. I just thought that I would agree with them. I actually learned everything that I know from Mr Marshall and Mr Hyde a couple of years ago.

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02-02-2016 02:40 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Gr Nt Ch Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX is a pretty good example. He is linebred T-Top/Soggy Bottom on the top(Haze) outcrossed to a CD X Pepper Ann female. He turned out to be a pretty nice well balanced hound with no major holes. Now he can/should be bred back to either T-Top(Moose, Rocky, Deuce, GD Red), CD(Toadie), Pepper(Rocker, Jet), Pepper Ann or Moonlight(way too many to list) females and produce nice pups. Or he can be outcrossed to just about anything since he has no major holes. I wonder how much his pups would be worth? Call Jared and ask him to price Fancy or Bruiser.

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02-02-2016 02:53 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Gr Nt Ch Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX is a pretty good example. He is linebred T-Top/Soggy Bottom on the top(Haze) outcrossed to a CD X Pepper Ann female. He turned out to be a pretty nice well balanced hound with no major holes. Now he can/should be bred back to either T-Top(Moose, Rocky, Deuce, GD Red), CD(Toadie), Pepper(Rocker, Jet), Pepper Ann or Moonlight(way too many to list) females and produce nice pups. Or he can be outcrossed to just about anything since he has no major holes. I wonder how much his pups would be worth? Call Jared and ask him to price Fancy or Bruiser.

I agree and thats a good point. Boone is from an outcross...but it is one that is heavy line bred on one side. I dont think enough has been said about how you breed dogs like that for the best results. Allen touched on it and I think Mark did also but it doesnt get talked about enough.
Take cali for example. She is heavy Outlaw on the top but total outcross on bottom. To outcross her again I believe would not produce high % litters. To me her best odds of doing so is to breed her back to an outlaw bred dog...preferrably one that was line bred. And like you said on Boone...breed ...his best results for consistent high % litters SHOULD be in line breeding him back to a T Top Or C.D. female..,who itself is linebred.
The whole t top line as tom developed it is a heavy line bred line on go man sam and to a lesser extent a couple other dogs. Look how in doing so he was able to lock in that big bawl mouth on track and long distinct locates that a majority of Rabble's pups all had. See, thats what I was talking about when I said you have to line breed until certain traits are locked in and dominant to the point that you expect to see them in almost every litter of offspring...thats when you can safely try an outcross to add the next desired trait...but if you do not then continue to line breed a few generations to the line with that trait...you may quickly see it be diluted and vanish.

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Proud lifetime member of the NRA
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Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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