Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

But the fact that your breeding for what you want and not whats hot is the key im a bricklayer and the old man that taught me said once that if we let the money get ahead of the quality we have lost the battle and we are no good to anybody in other words our salt has lost its flavor so pitch it in the dirt.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

Want every one to know I am not trying to be a know it all and this is how You must do it, just trying to pass along what I have learned thru the years in breeding.
Hope it helps some to think outside the box, would love to see young breeders hunt there line of dogs and be proud of the work they put in.
Having different lines is a great tool in breeding.


How about Environment? What do you guy's think about that?
This is a discussion among hound breeders and each has his own opinion, please respect that.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

I think enviornment has more to do with getting the most out of a pup but if a pups got it they will turn out in a desert.

Last edited by rthompson on 02-09-2015 at 12:43 PM

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Want every one to know I am not trying to be a know it all and this is how You must do it, just trying to pass along what I have learned thru the years in breeding.
Hope it helps some to think outside the box, would love to see young breeders hunt there line of dogs and be proud of the work they put in.
Having different lines is a great tool in breeding.


How about Environment? What do you guy's think about that?
This is a discussion among hound breeders and each has his own opinion, please respect that.

---

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

I bought a line bred pup, from a well known line, half brother half sister cross. The dog was nuts, supposedly he went on to tree coon and started as an all natural, but I didn't think much of him. He was super smart, but was just crazy wired, crazy eyed, never stopped tweaking. Most of my dogs didn't like him, and I took that as a sign, he wasn't right. The odd thing was he had a very high level of working intelligence, and he was really easy to communicate and train with.

It seems to me a lot of times to much of a good thing is not always a good thing.

As far as traits go, I think often times that has more to do with who the owner is, different hunters value different traits. Understanding what your breeding, and explaining your self clearly, so that new owners know what to expect goes a long ways. Honesty in another words.

For example if a well known stud dog throws great looks, big beautiful locates, great temperaments, natural starters, fast track dogs, but a lot of the pups aren't naturally accurate. This should be explained by the breeder or stud dog owner to the future pup.

Hiding these things, is inappropriate and inexcusable just as much as the sucker who actually thinks he is breeding to a perfect dog. I don't believe in a perfect dog,and any one that does is an idiot. Anyone selling this idea is an idiot.

If the buyer of pups and breeder of the pups can communicate openly and honestly, all will be better pleased with the results. I think this a big advantage of working with one line, if you or another are conversing about a line both hunters know very well, they both already know the weaknesses and strengths, and what to expect. This would naturally make a more satisfied pup owner and breeder.

I agree I think line breeding is a very important tool, and should be the foundation. Also as a general rule it is better to improve little by little then it is to try to do things to fast or take shortcuts. Stud dogs are often marketed as short cuts. Tortoise vs the hair, slow and steady wins the race.

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Last edited by Fisher13 on 02-09-2015 at 05:41 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

The following concepts come from a book on canine genetics. The author is Willis 1989.

Let's look at this simple equation. R = S x (H2). R is the response to selection. S is the selection differential, and H2 is the heritability of desired traits.

What most dog breeders are attempting to do is increase the response to selection in their coon hounds. The thing is H2 is something we have no control over. It is what it is.

Therefore, the only way to increase R is to increase the selection differential. The only way to increase the selection differential is increase selection.

If we look at history and the events of today, the best breeders are those that know the most about the last 4 generations of their breeding stock. These same individuals are also very particular with the selection of their breeding stock.

The conclusion is simple. If we want better dogs we have to be more selective in our breeding stock. It really isn't rocket science.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Knuckols
Around 1990 I bred a Lipper daughter to a Lipper son they were out of different Line of females . They had similar mouth nose hunting style etc . From that cross(6) 3 of the females made NTCH one of the males was stolen but was a nice hound another male was killed and I don't know what became of the other . I bred one of the females to Mark Whatleys New Moon which was distantly related but had similar traits and he also came from a very strong litter . From that cross of 6 pups we got 2 NTCH females and at that time the youngest dual grand male ever . I think the key to that success is we were line breeding dogs of similar traits that also came from strong litters . I was told a dog only produces the average of his/her littermates along with line breeding seems to be the way to go . Of Course we didn't make any money we mostly placed dogs with hunters .Lol Ive never made money in this sport , Someone is cause Im spending a ton . There is a local dog in my area that should be a great reproducer and that would be Josh Howards Train . He comes from an entire litter of Coon Dogs if someone had a close related female from a good litter that cross would be a safe bet

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1535

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics....

---

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

Inbreeding is a technique used in selective breeding. In livestock breeding, breeders may use inbreeding when, for example, trying to establish a new and desirable trait in the stock, but will need to watch for undesirable characteristics in offspring, which can then be eliminated through further selective breeding or culling. Inbreeding is used to reveal deleterious recessive alleles, which can then be eliminated through assortative breeding or through culling.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Perry, Fl.
Posts: 384

Conrad you are a man after my own heart. I have been breeding my line for thirty years. I hunt what I breed and dont sell dogs. I primarily breed bear/boar dogs. My traits are in this order.

nose, cant run what you cant jump
speed, speed kills
tree, a must for bear dogs
grit, they gotta stay when it gets rough
intelligence, if they have the other four they are usually intelligent
looks, I like a pretty dog
color, dont care if they have all else

If and when I have to outcross I use a dog of similar breeding, all my dogs go back to the same ancestry. I never breed siblings though.

The main problem with breeding dogs is:

There are men with dogs and there are "Dog Men".
There's a lot more of one than there is of the other.

When you figure out which you are you will be way ahead.

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 780

quote:

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Originally posted by psiskjr
Conrad you are a man after my own heart. I have been breeding my line for thirty years. I hunt what I breed and dont sell dogs. I primarily breed bear/boar dogs. My traits are in this order.

nose, cant run what you cant jump
speed, speed kills
tree, a must for bear dogs
grit, they gotta stay when it gets rough
intelligence, if they have the other four they are usually intelligent
looks, I like a pretty dog
color, dont care if they have all else

If and when I have to outcross I use a dog of similar breeding, all my dogs go back to the same ancestry. I never breed siblings though.

The main problem with breeding dogs is:

There are men with dogs and there are "Dog Men".
There's a lot more of one than there is of the other.

When you figure out which you are you will be way ahead.

---

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: north dakota
Posts: 2363

Lol

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JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
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"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Perry, Fl.
Posts: 384

Jay I am probably a lot older than you realize. I did my share of stupid stuff in my time. I have another thirty years in front of that thirty to do foolish things. And reread the post, I think at the end I said that my belief now was that if you had to cross breed you had the wrong dogs to start with. LOL

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 789

Bottom line guys is that there is only ONE man that knows what will work and that's God himself. It was the second thing I have ever learned hunting with dogs. Getting a pup is like buying a lottery ticket, you just never know. First thing I was taught was NEVER trust another coon hunter!

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: north dakota
Posts: 2363

What did i do ? Lol .. I missed something. Lol

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JAMES RIVER HOUND KENNEL
JAY BRADEMEYER 701 308 0490
Home of the late Ntch Lipper's Lip Lock Lizzy, Ntch Moonshiners Sassy, and 88 Walker Days Winner Grntch Ceder Hill Sass

"Building on a solid foundation starts on the bottom side"

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 789

quote:

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Originally posted by jay brademeyer
What did i do ? Lol .. I missed something. Lol

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 780

quote:

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Originally posted by Sy Sparks
Bottom line guys is that there is only ONE man that knows what will work and that's God himself. It was the second thing I have ever learned hunting with dogs. Getting a pup is like buying a lottery ticket, you just never know. First thing I was taught was NEVER trust another coon hunter!

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

We may need to start a post on buying pups, this one is on breeding them.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics....

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1671

Use what you have learned. You appear to be smarter than most.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: Kentucky Wildcat Country
Posts: 4600

quote:

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Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Inbreeding is a technique used in selective breeding. In livestock breeding, breeders may use inbreeding when, for example, trying to establish a new and desirable trait in the stock, but will need to watch for undesirable characteristics in offspring, which can then be eliminated through further selective breeding or culling. Inbreeding is used to reveal deleterious recessive alleles, which can then be eliminated through assortative breeding or through culling.

---

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Posts: 614

Joe Newlin
The true secret to line breeding is NOT in the pedigree...it is in the type. Until you have individuals that are similar, you are fooling yourself if you believe you are truly "line" breeding. The term comes from days gone by when people bred what they had for a particular reason...they like the color, the sound, the style..whatever, but they took similar, yet related individuals, and crossed them to get more of the same as they had....

Too many people are paper breeders and are not breeding for similar characteristics

Amen preach it.

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: Fayetteville, Tn
Posts: 86

I usually hold my tongue when this is discussed but I recon I'll let off some steam.
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A "BREEDING" NOT A "CROSS". A cross would be a B&T bred to a Walker or a bird dog bred to a hound.

Second, the goal should be to raise the percentages of dogs with the desired traits. ie if you want pleasure hounds that pack well and end up with 75% of the litter that are "independent get gone" hounds, guess what, you failed.

Third, all of these different breeds of K9s have evolved into what we have today because of intense inbreeding and ruthless culling. We are just refining these breeds now to suit our wants. Most are just trying to make a buck.

If you've got Coma twice in the third generation that doesn't make him "Coma bred". He's only 25% Coma. That leaves 75% scatterbred. The 75% is where you get the unpredictable crap.

You can't achieve "hybrid vigor" by breeding scatterbred dogs.

Some people grasp breeding, some are blissfully ignorant, and some are too stupid to ever get it. Just because you take a bitch to a stud doesn't make you a breeder.

One last thing before I dismount this soap box. A prepotent stud is not a good "reproducer", he is a good "producer". No other genre of dogmen misuse "reproducer" and "cross".

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Y'all are getting to complicated !!! All I know to do is put two dogs together hope that it works try to make a good litter out of that breeding if it don't cull heavy and move on !!!!

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

Chiggers, Trying to keep it short and sweet, the problem is most do not understand "all" the good that can come from it, and only focus on the negative.
They think it is taboo, I see it as a means to improve on selection.
Taboo is what most people are breeding these days.
HowellN good post.
David Morgan, Hollar at me sometime.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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