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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: just a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
To Win you have to have a Stay put hold pressure treedog. I look at the dogs for sale thread and talk with folks all over about the dogs they have. The one thing that seems to come up is that a lot won't tree. If a person intends to turn heads I've found the best way is turn loose a tree monster as some of yall call them that does get under a coon most of the time. My take on Rat is that he influenced them in a positive way more than negative simply based off what he produced in his #'s and all the good dogs that never went to a hunt from him. They were out there. I have been and will continue to breed in the direction that increases the # of pups per litter that will get treed and stay put. Everyone always goes to "drive" as their reasoning behind a cross in our breed. But the facts remain that TREEDOGS are what beats most "good reds" in competition.

I guess I didn't realize there were that many people having trouble with their redbones not treeing or being stay put tree dogs. I don't pleasure hunt with other people hardly ever....so besides what I hunt....the only other reds I see are ones I draw in competition or go try out....and most were all get treed type dogs. I have seen a lack of drive tho in many redbones...even the ones who were tree dogs. I think the dogs from the line I am hunting have above average drive in most cases....but not all...but all are early starting lock down hard stayput tree dogs....but its 50/50 between quick strike or tight mouth.
I am always real, real careful when considering dogs who fall below the 70%-75% accuracy mark as far as buying or breeding to the dog...no matter how impressive it is on the tree. I like to hunt when the leaves are off and see just how accurate a dog really is. I have never seen a 100% accurate dog....but the best ones I know and have hunted with in the past were in the 85%-90% range throughout most of the year. Accuracy is something I refuse to sacrifice in my breeding program. I have seen other breeds do this and it is never good for that breed or line of dogs because it is one of those traits that is hard to regain once it is traded away for quicker or harder tree dogs. But to each his own...if hard treeing impresses you more than seeing a coon or getting plus points....then so be it...but I don't see a reason we can't have both if we are careful in our breeding practices.

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04-02-2014 10:39 PM

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Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

Re: Re: just a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I guess I didn't realize there were that many people having trouble with their redbones not treeing or being stay put tree dogs. I don't pleasure hunt with other people hardly ever....so besides what I hunt....the only other reds I see are ones I draw in competition or go try out....and most were all get treed type dogs. I have seen a lack of drive tho in many redbones...even the ones who were tree dogs. I think the dogs from the line I am hunting have above average drive in most cases....but not all...but all are early starting lock down hard stayput tree dogs....but its 50/50 between quick strike or tight mouth.
I am always real, real careful when considering dogs who fall below the 70%-75% accuracy mark as far as buying or breeding to the dog...no matter how impressive it is on the tree. I like to hunt when the leaves are off and see just how accurate a dog really is. I have never seen a 100% accurate dog....but the best ones I know and have hunted with in the past were in the 85%-90% range throughout most of the year. Accuracy is something I refuse to sacrifice in my breeding program. I have seen other breeds do this and it is never good for that breed or line of dogs because it is one of those traits that is hard to regain once it is traded away for quicker or harder tree dogs. But to each his own...if hard treeing impresses you more than seeing a coon or getting plus points....then so be it...but I don't see a reason we can't have both if we are careful in our breeding practices.

Im not lacking in tree power, going hunting or am I trying to breed up a slick treeing idiot. But Rat Attacks #'s speak for themselves. Folks must have liked him and wanted a really fast hard tree dog or he would have never seen the number of females that got bred to him. We don't have and wont have a dog in our breed that throws as many competition dogs as rat without everyone admitting that the rules do not favor the good old honest coon treer. They favor the loud hard going 50 to 60% accurate tree machine. Some hunts you have to have plus in order to win, which results in controversy on casts, other hunts only require the cast winner to be the best score either by coon or by less minus. we can all agree that those world champs he threw were the better of his offspring. So my thoughts still are the same. If you want to compete on that level breed to get to that level. Hopefully my comment here is taken how I truly mean it. Saying something in person vs this forum is very different and most of the blow ups come from someone reading a post and taking it the wrong way. Rat was a better ( COMPETITION) stud than we have as a breed. Anyone who wants to argue that needs to show me the pile of win slips that compares to his offspring. Good luck guys

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Last edited by Preston Owens on 04-02-2014 at 11:32 PM

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04-02-2014 11:11 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Re: Re: just a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
Im not lacking in tree power, going hunting or am I trying to breed up a slick treeing idiot. But Rat Attacks #'s speak for themselves. Folks must have liked him and wanted a really fast hard tree dog or he would have never seen the number of females that got bred to him. We don't have and wont have a dog in our breed that throws as many competition dogs as rat without everyone admitting that the rules do not favor the good old honest coon treer. They favor the loud hard going 50 to 60% accurate tree machine. Some hunts you have to have plus in order to win, which results in controversy on casts, other hunts only require the cast winner to be the best score either by coon or by less minus. we can all agree that those world champs he threw were the better of his offspring. So my thoughts still are the same. If you want to compete on that level breed to get to that level. Hopefully my comment here is taken how I truly mean it. Saying something in person vs this forum is very different and most of the blow ups come from someone reading a post and taking it the wrong way. Rat was a better ( COMPETITION) stud than we have as a breed. Anyone who wants to argue that needs to show me the pile of win slips that compares to his offspring. Good luck guys

I wasn't trying to argue or insinuate your dogs were lacking anything. You were the one who said that is what other redbone people had been telling you....I just said I didn't realize that was going on in our breed. But I don't talk to many people outside of those I am working with on my program.
I said earlier in this thread that rat was a proven reproducer of big winners...no argument there. But he is also probably the most hated walker stud in the breed because of the bad ones he threw. Like I said...you either love him or hate him....depends on what kind of dog you had out of him. I really ddon't likea couple of dogs on the reproducer list for redbones because of what they threw....but if numbers and % are what you go by....then its hard to argue that they were successful by that measure. Rat was one of those rare dogs that threw quite a few good dogs who won big.....and about 10x more that were so bad or frustrating that they were shot under the last slick tree they made because guys could not stand to walk to another slick or to hunt their other dogs with them and get them slick treeing also. A very bad slick treeing dog is almost as bad as a really mean dog. Nobody will want to hunt their dogs with it so your left to hunt it alone wearing out several pairs of boots walking to empty trees. No matter how impressive a tree dog is....only the accurate ones interest me....

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04-03-2014 12:07 AM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

who

Rat gets all the credit for the slick treeing walker lines. I've seen some pretty good examples of this without any Rat blood in the walker pedigree. For years I always heard breed to a tree dog that is what you need to win. Many ,many walker men followed this rule and I believe that is why they are so dominant. The dogs stay treed on the wood no matter what is in it. It's funny how there are two competition seasons around our area. There's the early hunts that run from march until about mid may .Then there's the walker hunts that run from mid may until the leaves come off. When your on a summertime hunt it goes like this .Walkers get treed and the only red dog keeps on going. Walker handlers shine for about two minutes and all say circle it and then cut back into the red dog. This happens until they finally get treed with a coon. The walkers stay in the hunt and come back with a bunch of circle and a couple coon. The red dog come in with a couple of coon and many times some small minus for backing those slicks just long enough to be called treed then they leave and keep the track going. They get minus and walkers all circle. I've seen it many times. The hunts without leaves have about half the number of walkers entered or maybe I should say a heck of a lot less walkers as cast winners. I can't be the only one who see's this happen year after year. We have called the summer hunts Walker season for years and years now. lol

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04-03-2014 12:47 AM

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Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

Re: Re: Re: Re: just a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I wasn't trying to argue or insinuate your dogs were lacking anything. You were the one who said that is what other redbone people had been telling you....I just said I didn't realize that was going on in our breed. But I don't talk to many people outside of those I am working with on my program.
I said earlier in this thread that rat was a proven reproducer of big winners...no argument there. But he is also probably the most hated walker stud in the breed because of the bad ones he threw. Like I said...you either love him or hate him....depends on what kind of dog you had out of him. I really ddon't likea couple of dogs on the reproducer list for redbones because of what they threw....but if numbers and % are what you go by....then its hard to argue that they were successful by that measure. Rat was one of those rare dogs that threw quite a few good dogs who won big.....and about 10x more that were so bad or frustrating that they were shot under the last slick tree they made because guys could not stand to walk to another slick or to hunt their other dogs with them and get them slick treeing also. A very bad slick treeing dog is almost as bad as a really mean dog. Nobody will want to hunt their dogs with it so your left to hunt it alone wearing out several pairs of boots walking to empty trees. No matter how impressive a tree dog is....only the accurate ones interest me....

I agree for the most part, I have to say tho Ive not ever worried about hunting one of my dogs with a slick treeing idiot, I don't worry about mine backing another dog. Its a rare thing in mine, I guess if mine were that type that would be a real concern. I may be more fortunate than I previously thought, very good point right there man. I can see what your saying now.

Mr Hyde I agree with you, But the most of the big hunts are during your "walker" season. So to play you have to somewhat conform.

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04-03-2014 12:58 AM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Back a dog

I like my dogs to be pack minded and not afraid to tree with another dog . I also want them to move on if it is slick . The super independent kind that have to tree alone is something I want less of. My biggest problem is my dogs need a better handler. Track dogs that will stay treed with the meat ,that is what I want.

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04-03-2014 01:09 AM

Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

Re: Back a dog

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I like my dogs to be pack minded and not afraid to tree with another dog . I also want them to move on if it is slick . The super independent kind that have to tree alone is something I want less of. My biggest problem is my dogs need a better handler. Track dogs that will stay treed with the meat ,that is what I want.

Those kind win a lot. So do deep and alone, its really just a personal preference thing. If I had to break mine to be alone id prolly just leave them alone im glad that I don't have to tho. That's how we racked up all those coon for Richard at the refuge, cut loose get treed split nearly everytime. I like it.

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04-03-2014 01:28 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

That's true...they do win a lot...but I would be pulling my hair out trying to hunt them through the week. I just hate to walk to empty trees. My dogs get some...like most...but if they don't have a coon in most trees they make they don't stay here long. Good luck to everyone and I hope they find what they are looking for.

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04-03-2014 01:41 AM

josh tetting
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Farmington WI.
Posts: 644

Preston kelly

I'm with you I like independence to a point
I want my dog to get a couple by them self
And get at the very least a piece of every tree
. I have drawn a few totally independent dogs
And don't like it seems they hold the cast
Up and don't generally score very high.
Jmo!!

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04-03-2014 01:43 AM

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Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Big hunts

Your right the big hunts are in the summer mostly. Walkers win a lot of them. hmmm

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04-03-2014 01:47 AM

Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

Yep

I think Scott started this thread to get some good feedback, the fact that the big league coon hunts are in the summer plays a role into whether or not a dog can win. When that Hardwood monster sticks a tree and doesn't budge your goin to burn up 15minutes everytime if they want to shine and that is why they can pull off more wins, those dogs make 6 tree's in 2 hours vs good coondog red that makes 3. 3 of the six walker tree's are empty but the leaves save them,And if red makes a mistake most times the walkers are going to win. now my thoughts are get in there struck and treed alone with red and the ball game has changed. But then again Im just doing this as a hobby, I take it serious to a point but I know that no single person alone will change our breed. We each have to hunt what we like and try not to upset the other breeders so there is a glimmer of hope that they will help you if you need or want to try something different

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04-03-2014 02:04 AM

Treesmoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 120

More comp hunters

I think we need more competition hunters pushing our breed. I think we have some dogs that can win. If no one had of competition hunted rats pups his numbers wouldn't be what they are. I believe more people are starting to consider a red dog for competition and more breeders are breeding for that purpose. We even have a few walker guys starting to pay attention. We are headed in the right direction. I don't figure there were many pleasure hunters hauling females to rat. Rome wasn't built in a day. We just gotta keep entering our reds and breeding to what will help us win if we want to narrow the gap. Redbones, like all other breeds, will always have a greatpleasure line that people will carry on just to pleasure hunt . That's great. I wouldn't want it any other way. Not everyone wants to competition hunt. But the ones that do need to stick together because we are already out numbered greatly!

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04-03-2014 04:30 PM