truly
Banned
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 3685 |
quote:
Originally posted by TomPurdy
Excellent post Truly, some point well taken ,I actually agree with you there are certain aspects of socialism that benefit a society .**1** However socialism is based on the fundamental concept that people will work hard ,and only take what they need!! Socislism would be a great form of government if that were true.Unfortunately however just the opposite is true. It is true with me it is true with you. Human nature from the fourth chapter of Genesis until now, is how do I get more for less that's why any marketer will tell you if you want to get people in your store advertise buy one get one FREE! Everyone looks to get more bang for the buck!! In our illustrations the kids with low grades quickly come to realize I can perform poorly with little effort and still get a six week vacation,paid for by the students who perform well. The poor students quickly come to learn that they get more bang for the buck that way!! **2** The achieving students also realize this ,and suddenly loose their motivation.The scale suddenly tips more people taking ,less people working and that society cannibalizes itself. The poor students begin to accuse the achiving students.
Capitalism is based on the concept that a motivated free person will succeed, never forget the pilgrims did not come here to get free health care!! They came here to be free!! Capitalism rewards those who seek to achieve!! Conhrt just gave some good examples of that. Those people he spoke of are famous, but their are millions of other examples who are not!! **3** My father being one of them!! That's why I say capitalism has pulled more people out of poverty than any legislation could ever do!! Capitalism at least affords people the opportunity. Some take it others do not.
Let's imagine if the NBA would start to commission themselves with a socialistic view they would have to let me play!!! At 5'11,and hardly able to walk to a dog without falling, do you think the NBA's product would be better or worse? That's what makes LeBron James worth millions, he has skills that most do not! The same can be said of those who apply themselves ,and become CEOs, and so on. Now I can sit here, and complain that LeBron has advantages over me ,and he certainly does .**4** However that doesn't give me the right to sit here, and tell him he needs to give me some of his money, just because I can't dunk a basketball!! If you are born in this country you have advantages, that people around the world would die for!! **5** Capitalism is what has turned the USA into a superpower in less than 300 years!!
On a lighter note Truly, did you get anything treed last nigh?
Tom, I inserted numbers in your post cause I want to go point by point where I see things differently.
1- I think you have confused socialism [S] and capitalism [C] here- more socialized economies don't assume they [citizens]will take only what they need. They require it. This is the whole knock on S. You will have provided for you what the society thinks is enough, nothing less than that, but it will be hard to take more than you need. If you find yourself in a position where the "getting" is easy you will likely be taxed heavily (see Lebron James). C requires charity to be the balancing act between the rich and poor. S is the counterweight to the greed/human nature that goes back to the beginning of time. In C if you figure out how to get more for less, even if the ways you do it are immoral, unscrupulous and maybe even illegal you get to keep it. Look at all the banksters that defraud so many, they pay a fine of about half of the money that they gathered through their illegal, unscrupulous or immoral ways and keep the rest. (see Jayme Dimon)
2- I think we have a fundamental difference in how much difference their needs to be in pay/lifestyle to motivate people. Using our "test students" again, I think if you had one dollar difference for each level of ranking that would still motivate folks. As in the top kid (of 100) would get $100. The middle kid would get 50, the lowest would get 1. I think that would be enough. Our CEO's now make 354 times more than their rank and file employees. The CEO of Walmart makes about 1000 times more than his employees. I think that is demotivating. Think about it this way- would you rather live in a society where there is a 50% chance that you live quite comfortably, and a 10% that you live very very well, but a 0% chance that you become a multi billionaire, or would you rather live in a society where there is only a 20% chance of living quite comfortably, a 7% chance that you live very very well, and a 1/2% chance that you become a multi billionaire? Back to Genesis- I think you would have to be pretty greedy to choose choice #2.
3- your father and conhrt's examples are all over the age of 50. They all grew up in a different era. They grew up when this country was "more socialist". There were more opportunities 30-60 years ago. College was cheaper, Pell grants were easier to get, 40% Unionization drove up prevailing wages. As a 45 year old I can see the cut off. Folks used to work one or two jobs and retire with a pension. Now many are pushed into contract work and job hop year to year. Things are just different now. Everyone knows it. SOme just want to blame it on Obama, some realize that we have true underlying fundamental problems with how our economy works. But things are different. There is all sorts of data that suggest that income mobility has bottomed out.
4-I don't know Lebron's story. But I can guess that he, like most of his coworkers have a similar story. They started practicing their craft on public property- city park likely. They got their first career training by volunteer coaches- at age 7,8,9, they were getting hours and hours of volunteer coaching and now playing inside government provided facilities- park and rec buildings, school gymnasiums. By middle school they got coached by public school teachers and more training in free facilities. Then came the free govt provided busing to play other teams. Then a trip to the state championship where they likely played in another govt owned facility. Where they were spotted by a college scout, out on the payroll of a State run facility, looking for new talent. Kids got a free ride now- off to a State run college where employees on the state payroll mentor and coach them into the great players that they become. They fill the State owned/subsidized stadiums night after night. Then they get drafted by the Pros. Where they will play in stadiums that are heavily publicly funded. If they play football there will be govt paid for military jets flying over to add value to the spectators experience. When you add it all up we have invested millions into these star athletes. They didn't do it on their own. Sure, they did their part. But you and I the taxpayer did ours too. Pay it forward Lebron. We invested in you. Return us some dividends.
5- If you had to make a list of the different policies that led the US to be a superpower I don't think many of those policies are actually capitalist. Our governments decision to evict the indigenous folks from their land and then give that land to farmers, loggers, miners, and railroads was actually very anti capitalist. We actually stole property from the rightful owners. BUt it worked very well to spur economic growth. Our governments decision to get into WWII, help win it and meanwhile bomb the bejeezuz out of Germanys industrial centers was not C, but served us well. Sending a man to the moon was not C, but also served us well. Freeing slaves was actually 100% anti capitalist. Slaves were capital. It was very socialist to steal property from the slaveholders and make them free. Investing in our roads and bridges, locks and dams, giving land to start colleges, setting aside land for public use- all very anti capitalist. But quite likely big factors in our country rising to the top.
If the premise of capitalism is doing something for capital gains, make a list of things that were done purely for capital gains that made this country great. I think we are at our best when we do the right thing just cause it is the right thing. Not cause of greed.
On that lighter note- tough conditions. My wide ranging dog covered miles tonight. Miles. Hunted out 3/4s of a two mile section. Made one den tree. Nothing for a cold nose dog to even open on. 13 degrees. Great night though.
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Last edited by truly on 12-14-2013 at 05:52 AM
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12-12-2013 06:15 AM
