Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
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quote:

---

Originally posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL
Having judged a few local Coonhound bench Shows I am amazed there is not good representation at Premier. Call me old fashioned but I consider the Coonhound Program to be the Backbone of UKC. I have seen some awesome hounds at the few local bench shows that I have judged.

Simplify the solution.
Top 10 for bench shows(hunts) AND top 10 for conformation(all-breed shows). 2 separate programs. Invite all of the top 10 from both programs to premier for the top 10 run-off. None of these great Coonhounds that earned their way into the top 10 from either program should be excluded by UKC. You would not need to stop having the top 10 run-off for the Bench top 10.

If the Bench Show hounds choose not to participate you will still likely have some of the conformation top 10. The great coonhounds from the Bench Show top 10 should not be excluded even if they did not earn points at conformation events.

My vote is for 2 separate programs (Bench and Conformation) with all top 10 from both programs invited to premier runoff. I see this as the best option to have ALL the best coonhounds qualified to be represented at Premier.

---

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From the rulebook:
"8. Judge must see that all handlers walk or gait dogs.
Dog must be gaited for Judge to determine any
weaknesses in the locomotion of the dog."

In both Bench Shows and Conformation shows the judge is evaluating every dog to determine which hound comes the closest to perfection according to the standard. The standards were created to define the breed characteristics that make that breed unique. Each standard defines the physical characteristics that best suit the dogs performance in the hunt. Running gear has a direct influence on physical ability and usually makes up a large percentage of the standard.

When gaited a judge is evaluating correct physical structure. The following list is a few of the major physical aspects that are evaluated when a dog is in motion. These physical elements are major considerations that have a direct influence on a dogs physical ability in the hunt.
-Gaiting away from the judge.
-Hind legs should extend fully showing no restricted range of motion. The judge will see the pads of the hind feet if the dog extends properly.
-Hind legs should have driving force because they create the energy to propel the dog. There should be forward driving motion with no interference from the hind legs. A couple of things that cause loss of driving power include moving too close behind (causes the hind legs to move in an arc to avoid bumping which decreases the propelling force).
-The hocks should not twist in or out but should move in line with the hind leg.

-Moving toward the judge. The front legs absorb the impact created from the hind structure in order to propel the dog forward.
-Front legs must have good clearance from each other. Similar to hind structure, the front legs should move in a strait line converging under the center of balance without creating an arc which would cause wasted energy.
-Pasterns should not turn inward or outward but should move in line with the front leg. Any sort of paddling or swimming type of motion shows a weakness of the pastern joint resulting in loss of effortless motion.
-correct extension of the front leg. The foot will contact ground smoothly at full extension when the layback of the shoulder and angles and length of bone are correct. If the front foot extends then comes down and pounds the ground the shoulder assembly is fatigued and energy is wasted.

-Side view. When viewing motion from the side a judge can see many things including Balance front to rear, topline, head and tail carriage...
-A dog that is correctly balanced and has strong running gear appears to float effortlessly. The hind foot contacts ground just behind where the front foot lifts off. If the hind structure has greater angulation than the front structure the hind foot will contact ground beside the front foot creating a sidewinding type of motion. Both forward energy and the ability to turn while running track are compromised.
-Complete extension of front and rear legs are also seen. In front the foot is contacting ground at full extension and the full extension of the hind leg is also apparent.
-The back, body, and loins show the effortless propulsion of the running gear. With excellent motion created by sound running gear there is no severe twitching from side to side in the loins, no bouncing up and down, and no severe bending of the vertebral column. All of which cause physical strain to the hound.
-Head and neck and tail also contribute to motion.
-The tail is an extension of the vertebral column and effects motion. When the tail is set correctly and carried correctly it has a positive influence on motion.
-Similarly, correct length of neck and neck carriage aids in excellent locomotion.

All of the above are major physical considerations that directly influence a hounds physical ability to do the task it was bred to do. Covering many miles of rough terrain effortlessly, turning to stay accurate on a track at a good rate of speed, and staying free from injury are benefits of the physical elements that are evaluated when the dog is in motion. None of them can be completely evaluated when the dog is standing still.

Sorry for the long post but just couldn't leave H. L.'s question unanswered! If you search canine motion, gait... you will find volumes and videos related to the subject. This is just a few examples of why motion must be evaluated as required by the rulebook. There is no difference for what is correct according to the standards in both conformation and Bench Shows.

There is no replacement for excellent hunt characteristics. Evaluating and breeding dogs with both exceptional hunt and excellent physical characteristics will create the hounds most effective completing the task they were bred for. IMO Dan Mazalic

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-22-2013 at 09:11 PM

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OOPS! Did not intend to hijack the thread to a different subject!

My reasons for inviting all the top 10 Bench Show Coonhounds in stead of just the Bench Show top 10 winners from WC.

With so many excellent dogs in the Bench Show top 10 it is probably fair to assume the same dog does not win every time. Premier top 10 will probably be judged by a different judge. The judge may prefer one of the others in the top 10 and if so it should have the opportunity to win the All-Breed top 10.

If the top 10 winner does not go to Premier the Bench Show community may still have representation at Premier top 10. It is a great accomplishment to get in the Bench top 10 and to me that earns a spot for representation at Premier Top 10.

Some dogs may show better than others at the Premier due to the type of event/atmosphere.

As mentioned in previous posts, some Bench judges may not give strong consideration to excellent motion. The judges at Premier will likely be doing a complete evaluation of structure. Correct motion plays a significant roll when choosing the hound most likely to go into the all-breed top 10 and come out victorious over so many all-breed top 10 winners.

Best Chance for a Coonhound to win the Premier All-Breed top 10 is to invite the top 10 Bench Show Dogs and the top 10 conformation.

I am curious to see which coonhound will be the next to win the All-Breed Premier top 10. It is truly one of the greatest accomplishments in the WORLD of pure-bred dogs.

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why don't you call the coon dogs breeds the Elite 10 group,and you will still have the same name for the conformation group.so who wanted to go to the premier can still participate.

George

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Where in the January 2011 Official U K C Bench Show Rule Book can I find those standards you quote about GAITING? I can not find it. THanks just want to be up to date.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
Where in the January 2011 Official U K C Bench Show Rule Book can I find those standards you quote about GAITING? I can not find it. THanks just want to be up to date.

---

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Last edited by Cynthia on 07-24-2013 at 08:07 PM

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Todd. I have attended the Premier several times and LOVE it. I have come for the top 10 finals and I'even entered dogs for the entire weekend and have been the only coonhounds there in my breed. I made it to group and have placed in group.
I have also entered Top 10 at WC to get frustrated at having lost to a winner who vocally said they weren't even going to Premier and I was going.
Coonhound participation at Premier is unpredictable at best. One year almost every breed was there and we had lots of entries. Of course there was Purina show on the grounds at Premier and one nearby at Redbone Days as well so it was enticing to lots of folks.
Keep in mind....to the folks in conformation the PREMIER is their Autumn Oaks. They plan vacation all year like we do for WC and AO.
On coonhound side of things we have many other occasions to travel and plan for.....breed days, AO, WC, the World. It is very hard to attend all the events on conformation side and the bench show side. Even UKC has not always coordinated the Premier and major coonhound events. I know there have been years when English Days was the same weekend and also once i remember Redbone Days. I believe the weekend doesnt conflict presently, but with other major coonhound events, it is tough to hit them all.
I remember when UKC invited Top 10 coonhounds to finals at Premier just like all the other breeds. But then...too few folks really did or were interested in Top 10

Then UKC made the change to having run off for coonhound Top 10 finals at WC. Participation increased but not all winners went to Premier. And that's where we are today.

II have won my breed past several years and attended 2011 but haven't been able to come the last 2 years. Biggest hurdle is English Days is the weekend before and the trip to Bluffton IN makes the trip to Kalamazoo the very next weekend very tough.....both logistically and financially.

As Cynthia has already said very well....its hard to travel that far for that many days. And the room I booked in 2011 at Redroof Inn for 59.95 jumped to 119.95 in 2012. I was very surprised by that. I really wanted to come. Of course i moved that summer and Premier wasnt possible .That hits hard for a 4 night stay. You asked and I'm being honest.

Perhaps changing TOP 10 criteria to conformation would be a step in a new direction. I know i like the UKC conformation but I see little participation there as well.

Perhaps adding Purina event like a hunt and bench show to the Friday and Saturday venue would bring coonhounds there. I don't know how easy such a thing would be on UKC's end to coordinate, maybe a local club could put it on? i do know that would be 2 different departments at UKC at work at the Premier. But it did work in the past to have added enticement for coonhounds..... Purina shows do seem to draw nice dogs and many might make more effort to take advantage of the weekend????? just throwing out an idea.....

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I think what Penny's saying is very true, it all comes down to the cost of things and unfortunately real life. If you are serious about showing unless you have lots of money it's hard to do both conformation and bench shows, it's a lot of traveling, entry fees, motels, time off work etc. I know for us we pick and choose our favorites to go to as I'm sure most everyone does. If you make it to the PREMIER by winning your breed at WC, if you are not that interested in conformation shows most likely you will not budget the trip to the PREMIER in.

I am in favor of 2 seperate top 10 programs, those for the coonhounds in the conformation that would earn points and be conducted just as all of the other breeds are at the UKC conformation shows, run off at the PREMIER and then a top 10 program for the bench shows and leave the PREMIER completely out of the bench show program. Show the top 10 at the WC as they are now or as someone else mentioned don't have a 'show off' and award the top breed winners and then the overall points winner.

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I can read and that does not say as what was posted does it. At least not in my book. BUT it does say whay U quoted.

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Help me out I am realy confused . Cynthia You and I have the same book but which book did this come from. " The following list is a few of the major physical aspects that are evaluated when a dog is in motion. These physical elements are major considerations that have a direct influence on a dogs physical ability in the hunt.
-Gaiting away from the judge.
-Hind legs should extend fully showing no restricted range of motion. The judge will see the pads of the hind feet if the dog extends properly.
-Hind legs should have driving force because they create the energy to propel the dog. There should be forward driving motion with no interference from the hind legs. A couple of things that cause loss of driving power include moving too close behind (causes the hind legs to move in an arc to avoid bumping which decreases the propelling force).
-The hocks should not twist in or out but should move in line with the hind leg.

-Moving toward the judge. The front legs absorb the impact created from the hind structure in order to propel the dog forward.
-Front legs must have good clearance from each other. Similar to hind structure, the front legs should move in a strait line converging under the center of balance without creating an arc which would cause wasted energy.
-Pasterns should not turn inward or outward but should move in line with the front leg. Any sort of paddling or swimming type of motion shows a weakness of the pastern joint resulting in loss of effortless motion.
-correct extension of the front leg. The foot will contact ground smoothly at full extension when the layback of the shoulder and angles and length of bone are correct. If the front foot extends then comes down and pounds the ground the shoulder assembly is fatigued and energy is wasted.

-Side view. When viewing motion from the side a judge can see many things including Balance front to rear, topline, head and tail carriage...
-A dog that is correctly balanced and has strong running gear appears to float effortlessly. The hind foot contacts ground just behind where the front foot lifts off. If the hind structure has greater angulation than the front structure the hind foot will contact ground beside the front foot creating a sidewinding type of motion. Both forward energy and the ability to turn while running track are compromised.
-Complete extension of front and rear legs are also seen. In front the foot is contacting ground at full extension and the full extension of the hind leg is also apparent.
-The back, body, and loins show the effortless propulsion of the running gear. With excellent motion created by sound running gear there is no severe twitching from side to side in the loins, no bouncing up and down, and no severe bending of the vertebral column. All of which cause physical strain to the hound.
-Head and neck and tail also contribute to motion.
-The tail is an extension of the vertebral column and effects motion. When the tail is set correctly and carried correctly it has a positive influence on motion.
-Similarly, correct length of neck and neck carriage aids in excellent locomotion. "

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that part I do not know where it came from. again, since there was reference to internet searching on gaiting, it could be from anywhere or any source. will have to wait until he gets back on here and clarifies the source.

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This is on page 50 of the Coonhound rule book.
"8. Judge must see that all handlers walk or gait dogs.
Dog must be gaited for Judge to determine any
weaknesses in the locomotion of the dog."


The rest is just a few examples of things that can not be seen when the dog is standing on the bench in relationship to "locomotion". To gain knowledge of canine locomotion/Gait, judges and breeders would need to study outside sources that explain what is correct and why. Rachael Page Elliot has written some excellent books and Videos. There are many excellent books available that can be purchased inexpensively through Amazon Books. Just search canine gait/movement. Great info that helps both judges and breeders to continually improve the breed as a whole.

Many bloodlines are extremely strong on hunt traits. One of the best ways to improve the performance of future generations is to gain knowledge of structure in order to select pups that have a physical advantage to go with those excellent hunt characteristics.

If I had more time I would type you a list of reference materials dedicated to the subject. Best to just find everything available and read it all. Some will become repetitive but explained from different perspectives it will increase overall understanding. "The Dog In Action" by McDowell Lyons is another of my favorites. Rachael Page Elliot's Videos, especially seeing video-radiography of a canine in motion is a good place to start. Her books also have many illustrations. It would be a real handicap to attempt to breed or judge dogs without a strong understanding of what is correct in locomotion and how it effects performance. At 7-8 wks of age a pup will exhibit strengths and weaknesses of its physical and mental abilities. Would be hard to do the math if using only 50% of the equation.
Love the passion you guys and gals have. Gotta go get my hounds out for a run. Cooler temps today! Give me a call or drop me a message any time. Don't like typing!

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-24-2013 at 09:12 PM

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This is such a touchy subject.

I know the gaiting is not the rule in some instances but I just wonder how a judge would decide the overall balance of a hound without seeing them move on the ground. So many flaws are covered up by handlers.

I would love to attend the Premier one day. I love the hounds. I love the sport. Bringing up attendance is a great idea. I hope Ukc gets some ideas from this thread.

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U K C gives us rules by which to judge a BENCH SHOW. We should follow THOSE rules and those only. U K C has not given any definition as to define what is the proper locomotion meaning should a hound use the 4 beat or the 2 beat gate U know should a dog trot or pace. so if your dog paces in the ring what does the U K C Coon Hound Bench Show rule book say about that?, your opinion or mine does not matter what does the rule book say.
Am I arguing the point no maybee to many years in Law Enforcement I don't know but we have a rule book to gide us and we should not think our way is the correct way when the governing body has not given any printed guidance. So what is the proper locomotion for a hound, see that is the first step you may think the trot is the best though the easiest movement is the pace fasest and least exzausting. Just a thought not arguing. H L Meyer

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quote:

---

Originally posted by H. L. Meyer
U K C gives us rules by which to judge a BENCH SHOW. We should follow THOSE rules and those only. U K C has not given any definition as to define what is the proper locomotion meaning should a hound use the 4 beat or the 2 beat gate U know should a dog trot or pace. so if your dog paces in the ring what does the U K C Coon Hound Bench Show rule book say about that?, your opinion or mine does not matter what does the rule book say.
Am I arguing the point no maybee to many years in Law Enforcement I don't know but we have a rule book to gide us and we should not think our way is the correct way when the governing body has not given any printed guidance. So what is the proper locomotion for a hound, see that is the first step you may think the trot is the best though the easiest movement is the pace fasest and least exzausting. Just a thought not arguing. H L Meyer

---

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Gaits are different types of movement. The trot, pace, canter, gallop, walk are types of gaits.

If every bit of knowledge that would help to evaluate physical structure was contained in the rulebook, then the rulebook would be the size of a library. Simply not practical.

Knowledge of lateral displacement would help to understand why the pace would be the wrong gait to use for judging coonhounds. For now I will try to explain it this way. It is much more difficult for the dog to maintain equilibrium when pacing. Add to that movement over rough terrain and the pace is just not suitable to the task of searching out and running coon. The task the dog was bred for is at the forefront of the evaluation. The pace produces less fatigue so some hounds will pace/amble back to the truck after many hours of hard running. Overweight or poorly conditioned dogs will also be more likely to pace. Again they are trying to reduce stress and fatigue. A poorly balanced dog (Over angulated in the rear in relationship to the front angulation, or probably more common, a very strait front angulation in relationship to the hind angulation) will often pace. Poor balance that causes the hind leg to land beside rather than behind where the front foot lifts off will cause crabbing. Some call it sidewinding. The body is not strait with forward progress but rather it is angled to one side or the other. This is very tiring to the animal so it may pace to reduce the fatigue caused by crabbing. A fast trot shows the driving power of the hind structure and the reach achieved by the front assembly as well as the overall balance of motion. Those are the traits that will carry a hound over rough terrain for many hours and allow the hound to make turns at a good rate of speed.

It is important to note that young pups pace before being able to trot because their muscles take time to develop. I prefer to evaluate physical structure of pups after 7 weeks of age because by then they have developed enough to trot proficiently. At least significant physical deficiencies that would severely hinder a dogs ability in the hunt are apparent by then.

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-25-2013 at 11:16 AM

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As fascinating as this discussion is....I'm not sure it will help answer Todd's original inquiry. We have definitely taken a detour....LOL.

I will add however that Wayne Cavanaugh's discussion of dog movement he covers in his Judge's Seminars is pretty close to the description someone added earlier. It was quite detailed with what a judge should look for front view, side view, etc. Honestly, I thought it was a fair way to assess coonhounds. But i agree it does not appear in print in our rulebook.

Perhaps that is an argument for UKC making training videos for judges? To add to these sorts of discussions of what is correct movement...... It would add to having judges look at dog movement more consistently....well, maybe it would help...LOL. But, I'm doing it also....going on my own detour...LOL

The original discussion was centered around increasing coonhound representation at Premier and perhaps changing Top 10 criteria. Any other thoughts on that?

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Thanks Penny. So yes, basically this boils down to two very different but both logical and viable options. We will continue to discuss in house and with you all to determine the best option. But the way I see it the two options are:

1. Run two identical but separate programs with different names; one for conformation program dogs (Top Ten) and one for coonhound bench show participants (yet to be named). One programs Finals are held at Premier and one programs Finals are held at the Winter Classic.

2. Run two Top Ten programs, one for conformation program dogs and one for coonhound bench show program dogs in which ultimately 20 dogs will be eligible to show for overall Top Ten honors which will take place at Premier instead of the Winter Classic.

or.......

2(a). Run two Top Ten programs and continue to show the breed finals for coonhound bench shows at the Winter Classic and qualify one breed winner to advance to Premier to show against the conformation Top Ten finalists for the right to advance to the overall Top Ten Finals.

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I like Option 1 myself.

Splitting the Top 10 into conformation and bench show will likely still result in most of the same dogs i think. Those few whose of us who do both now will likely continue. I know I do both. I'm not sure if there are any who just dshow coonhounds in conformation, but the conformation Top 10 would "weed" out those who are only interested in bench shows.

I am making plans to attend Premier in 2014. i have yet to see the new and improved show building on the fairgrounds. I also enjoy the dock jumping, obedience and agility. Not to mention the terrier races..etc. great weekend all around

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 433

I agree with Penny.

I like Option 1.

Thanks for posting this, Todd. It is good to see that UKC is interested and taking time to ask the opinions of people who actually participate in one or both venues to improve the sport we love.

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Great running this morning. Love this cool weather. Back on track now. Fasten your seat belts because here it comes.

Lets start with this mission statement from UKC.
"Established in 1898, the United Kennel Club is the largest all-breed performance-dog registry in the world, registering dogs from all 50 states and 25 foreign countries. More than 60 percent of its nearly 16,000 annually licensed events are tests of hunting ability, training and instinct. UKC prides itself on its family-oriented, friendly, educational events. The UKC has supported the "Total Dog" philosophy through its events and programs for over a century. As a departure from registries that place emphasis on a dog’s looks, UKC events are designed for dogs that look and perform equally well."

Option #1
Two SEPERATE programs. One for show dogs the other for Bench dogs at the hunts. Does this promote the philosophy above or does it separate conformation show dogs from the Bench dogs at hunts? You decide!

Option 2 and 2a
Can the act of getting people together from both sides of the fence, Conformation and Bench, have any effect on fulfilling the mission statement?
Is it possible that a Bench show enthusiast might attend Premier and take in a seminar, or see first hand how the dogs are evaluated, or talk to any of the many individuals who attend and have invested a lifetime in studying the physical structure of canines and how the physical traits influence performance. Is it possible that conformation show people could gain knowledge from the Bench show community as to physical characteristics beneficial in the hunt? Here is a personal example: Soon after I started into the hunt program running Beau Of Touchstone I acquired a beautiful female out of a female imported from Finland. Beautiful showy square little hound that moved like a dream. Went on to become a UKC ALL-Breed Best in show winner. She really turned heads when she gaited through the room. Free stacked to perfection not due to training, She was just made right. Before she was 2 yrs of age I came to realize that the extra bulk she carried was a major hindrance. She did not have great endurance, especially in hilly terrain. Won't hijack your post again but simply put, the breed should be more elegant with smooth muscle rather than with the bulk she carried which made her heavier plus all that muscle requires oxygen. I learned this through the hunt events. So fact is the discussions that promote true total dogs go both ways. That is why I support 2 rather than 2a. More potential to create an environment for people to share bits of information to actually move in the direction of total dogs.

As long as the Bench show folks can still have their same program with their run-off at WC what can it hurt? Don't see the downside.

A Coonhound that can win in the All-Breed conformation shows and also qualify in weight pull, obedience, agility is labeled by UKC as total dog.

In the most recent beagle program a bench dog that can win the Bench Show points but just doesn't get scratched in the hunt is labeled as TOTAL DOG. Mind you the dog never needs to win a single cast to be labeled the TOTAL DOG of the year.

On the subject of education: What has ever been done in the beagle program to educate anyone on any subject other than hunt rule seminars. Nothing at any major event or anywhere. I take that back! While serving on the National Hunting Beagle Association I managed to organize one seminar by Leroy Perry from Galaxy Genetics on the topic of semen collection and freezing... It got rave reviews and was greatly appreciated by many. The following years of Nationals I begged for a time slot to invite very qualified speakers on different topics. I was willing to do all the leg work, set it up, provide materials, and even pay my own hard earned dollars for the fee and travel expenses. Pleaded and e-mailed and called UKC and just could not even get a time slot to invite a speaker.

Just writing a mission statement is NOT good enough! As the old saying goes if you are going to talk the talk why not walk the walk.

The top 10 bench dogs from all the field performance bench events should be invited to Premier top 10. Trying to make the top 10 in BOTH Bench and Conformation will just not be possible for many.

Like Suncrest Plotts stated "Thanks for posting this, Todd. It is good to see that UKC is interested and taking time to ask the opinions of people who actually participate in one or both venues to improve the sport we love."

Dan Mazalic

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-25-2013 at 07:33 PM

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Registered: Mar 2013
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny Jessup
I like Option 1 myself.

Splitting the Top 10 into conformation and bench show will likely still result in most of the same dogs i think. Those few whose of us who do both now will likely continue. I know I do both. I'm not sure if there are any who just dshow coonhounds in conformation, but the conformation Top 10 would "weed" out those who are only interested in bench shows.

I am making plans to attend Premier in 2014. i have yet to see the new and improved show building on the fairgrounds. I also enjoy the dock jumping, obedience and agility. Not to mention the terrier races..etc. great weekend all around

---

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville,Oh
Posts: 1447

I vote for option 1. You could post a poll !!

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Agree to disagree in one of the great gifts we have living in America. I have looked at all of your post and DO agree on a lot of your points. And valid points I might add. With that said I will vote for Option #1. You see now I HAVE A CHOICE either go to the BENCH SHOW or THE CINFORMATION show . Now lets keep the judging on the same track. So you see I believe they are SEPERATE "ie" judging, presentation, location, along with othere things ............... OPTION #1 .........H L Meyer

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H.L. You have an option to go to only bench shows with any of the choices. The thread was about getting Coonhound representation at premier. With #1 many great coonhounds are excluded from Premier just because they have not earned points at the all-breed shows throughout the year. Some areas may not even have very many shows that offer classes for coonhounds. I am against anything that puts the coonhounds at a disadvantage.

If you are voting for #1 what would the reason be? What advantage does it give the participation of Coonhound Breeds at Premier?

Last edited by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 07-30-2013 at 05:09 AM

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