Registered: Jul 2005
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So in a Father&Daughter cross more of the same genes should be evident in the pups correct.Thus the pups outcome should be of a more predictable nature.Shoot man I got this stuff!!LOL
Darren



GOOD LUCK HUNTING SHEEP
I'M GOIN TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Darren

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And Rob Elliot is pretty dang good too. Thanks for joinin this discussion Rob.

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Decisions to inbreed, linebreed or outbreed should be made based on the knowledge of an individual dog's traits and those of its ancestors. Inbreeding will quickly identify the good and bad recessive genes the parents share in the offspring. Unless you have prior knowledge of what the pups of milder linebreedings on the common ancestors were like, you may be exposing your puppies (and puppy buyers) to extraordinary risk of genetic defects. In your matings, the inbreeding coefficient should only increase because you are specifically linebreeding (increasing the percentage of blood) to selected ancestors.

Don't set too many goals in each generation, or your selective pressure for each goal will necessarily become weaker. Genetically complex or dominant traits should be addressed early in a long-range breeding plan, as they may take several generations to fix. Traits with major dominant genes become fixed more slowly. Desirable recessive traits can be fixed in one generation because individuals that show such characteristics are homozygous for the recessive genes and you will be able to see them. Dogs that breed true for numerous matings and generations should be preferentially selected for breeding stock. This makes them prepotent and of extreme value.

If you linebreed and are not happy with what you have produced, breeding to a less related line immediately creates an outbred line and brings in new traits. Repeated outbreeding to attempt to dilute detrimental recessive genes is not a desirable method of genetic disease control. Recessive genes cannot be diluted; they are either present or not. Outbreeding carriers multiplies and further spreads the defective gene(s) in the gene pool. If a dog is a known carrier or has high carrier risk through pedigree analysis, it can be retired from breeding, and replaced with one or two quality offspring. Those offspring should be bred, and replaced with quality offspring of their own, with the hope of losing the defective gene completely.

Trying to develop your breeding program scientifically can be an arduous, but rewarding, endeavor. By taking the time to understand the types of breeding schemes available, you can concentrate on your goals towards producing a better dog.
Information gathered from writings of Dr. Jerold Bell

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No simple answer will determine which breeding strategy is best. Whether you use Inbreeding, Linebreeding, Outcrossing or a combination of all three it all boils down to philosophy. Each strategy has favorable and adverse consequences. Using a combination of strategies and knowing how they drive selection and breeding in various portions of the population can help you choose among them, depending on the goals of your breeding program.

Inbreeding (and to a lesser extent linebreeding) makes for more consistent and more predictable animals, which can be good in some situations. It is useful if selection for vigor is going to be possible. Inbred populations have little variation, so that performance (temperament, conformation, color) can be accurately predicted. Inbreeding can also bring recessive defects to light. This too can be either good or bad. It is bad if selection is not going to remove (or at least identify) carriers from the population. It is good if the identification of carriers is going to act to reduce their frequency in the population.

With outbreeding, vigor goes up, especially reproductive vigor. Uniformity generally goes down, although one notable exception is the first cross between inbred or linebred animals that are from different tines. Crossing inbred lines usually generates very uniform animals, but these uniform animals
do not in their own turn produce uniform offspring.

Outbreeding also tends to decrease (at least initially) the chance that rare recessive genes are brought to light. The good news is that many diseases are probably due to rare recessive genes, and therefore outbreeding is one way to avoid their expression. The bad news is that they will eventually show up in a population, for carriers eventually become common enough that outbreeding pairs them up and the diseases or deformities are expressed. In a deliberately outbred population the expression of defects can indicate that the genes responsible (for those defects that are genetic in origin) are widely dispersed throughout the entire population.

One good option is to breed for outbred females and linebred males. A single strategy to accomplish this is somewhat tricky but possible. In this system it is essential that the linebred males come from carefully documented lines, and that they are not carriers of any deleterious genes. Not just any male will do!

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Selection is the force that allows reproduction of some individuals and not others. It operates independently of any type of breeding system in animal populations. Selection is therefore a force for change in the overall genetic makeup of a population. Selection is a powerful tool, one that can irreversibly change a population.

Selection can involve any trait whatever: size, color, temperament and conformation. Selection can be intense and cause fairly rapid change over a few generations, or it can be more relaxed and change the population more slowly in the desired direction. Because selection can irreversibly change a population, the breeder needs to carefully consider his or her goals.

Selection can be responsible for changing the incidence of recessive genes. If a defect or disease is due to a recessive gene and the defect can be treated, then it is possible for the defective animals to reproduce. All offspring of these animals will carry the gene for the defect, whether or not they actually express it. This transmission, repeated in many individuals, can act to increase the frequency of genes for defects. Other alternative plans have different consequences.

Limiting reproduction of known carriers is important for the long-term genetic health of the population, although its practice will always be unpopular with owners of otherwise-outstanding individual breeding animals that happen to be carriers of genetic defects. The widespread use of carriers ensures that when these dogs are bred and carry on these unknown recessive genes, they will infect many many dogs in the population. The difficulty is that, if left unchecked, the genes can become so common in a population that selection becomes a difficult pill to swallow, because then a high number of individuals must be removed from reproduction. Some of the carriers are bound to be otherwise exceptional, and these are the animals for which the choices become very difficult.

Identification of carriers can come about in different ways. One way is to simply let individual breeding practices eventually bring carriers to light. This works reasonably well for defects of low incidence, since they are unlikely to overwhelm the population. The danger of this approach is that a single undetected carrier sire that is used widely can spread the defective gene far and wide before it is detected. Once these genes become common, reducing their incidence is a real headache.

In the case of more common or severe defects, it is possible to test for carriers more deliberately. One of the most powerful tests for genetic defects is the mating of parent to offspring. If anything weak is present it will be exposed. Unfortunately, the number of matings needed for this type of test is relatively high. To be 95 percent sure that the animal is not carrying deleterious recessives, it takes twenty-three normal offspring from daughters. To be 99 percent sure, it takes thirtyfive normal offspring. Obviously, any abnormal offspring produced at any point along the way implicates the sire as having the genes for that defect. The logic works only if the defects are genetic.

If a carrier is detected, by whatever means, then the next step needs to be pondered carefully. If selection is aimed at decreasing the number of carriers, many different routes can be taken. One method is to neuter the affected individuals as they become known, the parents of the defective individual, and all of their previous offspring. This is the most radical selection against a defect, and it effectively removes carriers from the population as they are detected as well as some noncarriers simply because, based on the law of averages, they are more likely to be carriers by virtue of their relationship to known carriers. At very low gene frequencies carriers are unlikely to be detected because they are unlikely to be mated to another (equally rare) carrier. So while the "neuter all carriers" approach will work to dramatically reduce the number of carriers in a population, it rarely completely eliminates all carriers since some slip through the cracks of the system.

Other selection plans that work against carriers are better than nothing, but less drastic than neutering all carriers. One such plan is to neuter the sire because he can spread the gene more widely than can the dam, which produces fewer offspring. Still, half of the offspring of the carrier dam will be carriers. One approach to this problem is to neuter all of her sons but allow her daughters to reproduce. About half of these will be carriers. If these are in turn used for reproduction, the carrier rate goes down to about one-fourth, although which specific fourth is uncertain without a breeding test. If excellent males are generated, an alternative to this scheme would be to test-mate them to known carrier females to determine which of the males do not carry the defective gene. Those documented as free of the gene can then be used widely and safely for breeding of animals free of the specific defect. In this way, the positive traits of the line can be continued while leaving behind the defect. The process is long and involved but well worth the effort in some circumstances

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Registered: Jun 2003
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I am for sure no expert(well I can cut and paste pretty good,LOL) but I sure like this mental end of breeding.
Amazing things have been acomplished useing ALL these breeding principles.

Modes of Inheritance

A dog is the product of its genotype, or the genes in its makeup, acting in a specific environment. Its phenotype is an expression of both the genotype and the environment, that of which you can visibly see.

Four modes of inheritance cause most genetic defects in dogs:
Autosomal recessive or simple recessive
Autosomal dominant
Sex-linked recessive
Polygenic

An autosomal or simple recessive trait results when a matched pair of genes is present on any of 38 pairs of autosomes. An autosome is a nonsex chromosome. Both parents of an affected puppy are carriers of the abnormal gene, but generally do not show the trait.

An autosomal dominant trait results when a trait is expressed even though the pair of genes causing
the trait are not matched. Dominant traits are expressed in the heterzygous state, which means only
one parent must have a defective gene for the disorder to cause the trait to occur among the
offspring.

Sex-linked genes can be either dominant or recessive and always appear on the X-chromosome,
making females carriers. The same distinctions between autosomal dominant and recessive traits also
apply to sex-linked traits. For example, the dominant gene hides the recessive gene in the female
since the female has two X chromosomes. In the male, with only one X chromosome, the single
recessive gene that is part of that chromosome expresses itself, causing the same trait that seems to
require two genes in the female.

Polygenic traits are controlled by a number of genes, each of which adds in increments to the total
phenotype. These are called complex traits because multiple genes are involved. Polygenic traits also
are called complex traits because environmental factors are also involved.

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The Secrecy of Defects In Dogs
By: George A. Padgett, DVM
Professor in the Department of Pathology, College of Veterinary Medicine at Michigan State University
The first and major hindrance to recognizing the significance and cost of genetic disease is that most breeders believe that the MAJORITY OF DOGS ARE GENETICALLY NORMAL. This is not the case at all. Aside from what is likely to be the case, if you believe most dogs are genetically normal and you find out your dog carries a defect, whether it's cataracts or something else, you do not want to talk about it because you believe your dog is different (less worthwhile) than MOST dogs.
The average for genetic defects in any breed is about 14.

This belief causes a person to be secretive about a trait, to deny that it occurs, and, as a result, to fail to
address the defective gene as a problem which can be solved.

It is difficult to convince breeders that ALL dogs carry defective genes because people tend to hide problems and thus they are not an obvious part of the productivity of a dog or a kennel. However, the elite of the breed, the superior dogs, those that contribute a disproportionately high number of genes to the gene pool of the breed, allow us to get a better look at the problem for two major reasons.

• The first is that a good stud is used on bitches outside the control of the owner of the stud and thus the offspring of the stud are observed by multiple people and with multiple people it's hard to keep a secret. As a result, GOSSIP occurs. It may be true (also may not) but it's treated as gossip and sort of whispered rather than being openly discussed. Alternatively, a stud of lesser quality and not as well used, producing, say, two litters, may well have expressed the identical gene but the gossip is controlled (only two breeders are involved).

• The second reason relates directly to the first. For a genetic disease to exist in a breed, there must be affected dogs, carrier dogs (those having one gene for the trait), and dogs normal for both genes existing within the populations. Obviously, a dog bred more widely has a better chance to contact a carrier bitch and thus give the trait a better chance to express itself than a dog that produces one or two litters, even though both dogs are themselves carriers [controlled test matings may be the only way to establish who's who].

As a result of these two major features of genetic diseases and dog breeders (odds of producing a defect and gossip), you cannot name a single major dog in my breed that has produced 200 puppies or better (40 litters, 5 per litter) that has not produced some defect (try it, see if you can think of one). Further, once you know the dog has produced a recessive defect, then you know that each of his puppies has a 50:50 chance of being a carrier for that defect whether the puppy was born before the stud produced the defect or after he produced it.

What breeders most often forget, however, is that the reason you know a superior dog has a defect is that the dog is in fact superior. He is used more often than dogs of lesser status because he produces winning offspring. He adds quality to the breed or he would not have been allowed to produce so many puppies (remember, this is controlled by the owners of the bitches, not the owner of the stud). WE now have 200 puppies on the ground, many of which are already champions (or you wouldn't have 200 puppies on the ground!), half of which are carriers. The owners of these dogs have already made a large investment in them and now they do not want to talk about any defects involving their dogs. What I call "THE CODE OF SILENCE" is imposed; it is unethical to talk about defects, owners that talk about defects are though of as abhorrent. Breeders that admit their dogs have or carry a defect are hounded by others no matter what quality the dog nor how healthy the dog. The stage is set for what breeders do best to one another: THEY LIE TO EACH OTHER or they evade or they do not involve themselves in "useless" discussions or they fib or they do anything they can to avoid the fact that THEIR dog carries a gene for a given defect or may in fact have the defect (if it cannot be observed without special techniques).





This is the dilemma that dog breeders face no matter what the breed, no matter how famous the dog. ALL DOGS HAVE DEFECTIVE GENES LIKE ALL PEOPLE HAVE DEFECTIVE GENES. The question now becomes what should you do about it and what can you do about it?

Dog breeders in general ... cause defective genes to spread within a breed by failing to approach genetic defects in an open manner. They control the matings of their dogs, but somehow they end up expecting "nature" to correct defects in the same manner natural selection works in a wild population. If "nature" bred their dogs there might be some basis for the belief that a disease such as cataracts might be corrected over a period of one or two hundred years by natural selection. The fact that none of the breeders (having the belief that natural selection is protecting them) would be alive when it happened doesn't seem to faze them.

TRAIT'S WILL NOT DISAPPEAR BY THEMSELVES. NATURE WILL NOT SAVE YOU BECAUSE NATURAL SELECTION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DOG BREEDING.

Dog breeders in general need to face genetic defects as a realistic part of the problems encountered in the process of producing good sound animals. We need to quit whispering about defects and gossiping about defects and instead set up a sound program that allows the standard selection procedures to go on so that we breed good dogs and avoid major defects.
A decision needs to be made so that you can control what you have, breed it out or spread it.

Disclaimer: The NRTA is posting this article for information purposes only.

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Solving the Problems and the Painful Truths

There is no easy answer to get rid of defects in dogs. Remember most dogs carry 14 disease/defective traits that may come up in your breeding program at some point.
Most defects are recessive in nature meaning that both parents are carrying the gene and will produce the problem. Some however are not recessive in nature and only one parent needs to be carrying the gene in order to produce it. Lastly some defects are a combination of environmental issues and nutritional issues alone where neither of the parents are responsible for the defect. Unfortunately a lot of diseases have not been studied in dogs to be sure what exactly the genetic inheritance of the particular problem is.
Here are some examples.

Hip Dysplasia is one of them. Some experts say its genetic while others say it’s due to early injury and still others theorize that it’s a combination of nutrition and environmental factors.

The general consensus on Patella Luxation and Legge Perthes has been assumed that it is recessive in nature and that in order to produce a pup with the problem both parents must be carrying it.

Demodectic Mange is a great one under controversy. Since all dogs have the mites on them from birth it can be rather hard to determine if the pup breaks out because of stressful conditions or if there immune system has not fully matured yet or if its strictly genetic.

Under or Over shot jaws can be caused by genetics or by breeding two dogs with dissimilar head shapes. Meaning one dog has a long muzzle and the other parent has a short muzzle. The upper and lower jaws grow at different rates so that if a puppy has a good bite when very young and suddenly goes over or under there is a chance that the bite will self correct once the jaws catch up with each other. That is not always the case though.

The list goes on and on with defects but two healthy dogs that have been bred several times without occurrence of problems can suddenly produce a defect that shows up.

If you breed a male and a female and come up with defects then you can not always be sure that both of the parents are carriers when they do not express the defect themselves because of the lack of information on genetic inheritance modes. Generally speaking though, if both parents are carrying a bad recessive trait, a quarter of there offspring will show the defect, half will be carriers and a quarter will be free of the problem. It is now impossible to say which offspring are carriers and which are free of the defect. The affected ones are obvious.

Now what do you do? There are ways to breed out the defect genes but it’s a lot of work and takes many years to accomplish. You have a few choices.

1. If you are not a serious breeder and do not have enough dogs or different lines to work with in order to breed out an undesirable trait that has showed up suddenly in your lines then spay/neuter the dogs that are in question and all offspring produced if they had been being considered for breeding. This means that if you are someone who purchases pups from different sources because they are nice pups and have not bred those lines to tell what defects they carry or do not know about the complete history of the dogs you are just breeding unknown factors into the offspring each time you breed. The truth of the matter is that you are not a breeder, your just breed dogs.

2. If you are a dog owner with a couple of dogs and like to have a litter once in a while, be sure that you check up on the pups that you have sold to be sure that they do not have any problems. If even one pup comes up in any of the litters do not breed those dogs again.

3. For those who are a true breeder with substantial breeding stock and are willing to work in the “breeding out” of a trait over time you stand a good chance of producing excellent pups to move into the future with. It is time consuming, trying and an expensive venture. You would need to have test bred your dogs to find out exactly what they do and do not contain in the way of good or bad genetic traits, which is a 5-7 year long process at minimum. Of the test bred dogs, do not sell those pups that are in question or might carry a negative recessive gene to other breeders unless you are fully prepared to disclose this information to them. The offspring will show no signs of illness but when bred to another carried the negative trait will come back to the fore front. There is no way to predict when it will show up unless you can trace the lines back to a common dog in the ancestry that is a “known carrier”. And this means not just a dog that appears in the pedigree on both sides but a dog that is common as a “known carrier”. Also require a spay/neuter contract to all buyers of those pups if they are going into private homes.

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So if you are now willing to work at it, here is some
advice from experts and some options:

Limit reproduction of known carriers for the long-term genetic health of the population but then a high number of individuals must be removed from reproduction. Some of these carriers are bound to be otherwise exceptional, and these are the animals for which the choices become very difficult.

Another method is to neuter the affected individuals as they become known, the parents of the defective individual, and all of their previous offspring. This is the most radical selection against a defect, and it effectively removes carriers from the population as they are detected as well as some noncarriers. So while the "neuter all carriers" approach will work to dramatically reduce the number of carriers in a population, it rarely completely eliminates all carriers since some slip through the cracks of the system.

A less drastic than “neutering all carriers” plan is to neuter the sire because he can spread the gene more widely than can the dam, which produces fewer offspring. Still half of the offspring of the carrier dam will be carriers. One approach is to neuter all of her sons but allow her daughters to reproduce. About half of these will be carriers. If these are in turn used for reproduction, the carrier rate goes down to about one-fourth, although which specific fourth is uncertain without a breeding test.

If excellent males are generated, an alternative to the above scheme would be to test-mate them to known carrier females to determine which of the males do not carry the defective gene. Those documented as free of the gene can then be used widely and safely for breeding of animals free of the specific defect. In this way, the positive traits of the line can be continued while leaving behind the defect. The process is long and involved but well worth the effort in some circumstances.

So remember no matter how perfect a dogs conformation is or how beautiful he looks or how many shows or titles he has won, beware of what may be hidden deep in the lines in the way of recessives. You will NEVER know that the recessive is there until you happen on another dog which carries that same recessive and viola, you have a big problem. Unfortunately this can not be foreseen the vast majority of the time and pretty much every time you breed a dog it is a test breeding unless you have had those lines for many years and test bred each of the dog with several mates. For each time you outcross a dog into new lines it is like starting all over again. What lurks behind them can not be predicted. You may cross dogs without problems to several mates for several generations and it’s that one time that the wrong two dogs come together and the problem rises to the surface so fast that you hardly can believe that it’s happening.

It is so commonly said that “I got a bad dog from a breeder”, that breeder may not have had any idea of what recessive the dog was holding. When that unknown recessive was bred to your own dog and you got a bum litter, well then you at least found out that not only did the breeder you bought the dog from carry an undesirable trait but yours did too. Now it’s back to square zero again. It’s also commonly said, “How could the breeder not have known?” That’s easy enough, the wrong genes in there particular program never came together.

In the Rat Terrier breed specifically the problems that seem to be coming up are due to the fact that it is a fairly recent breed that has come into popularity. More dogs are being sold and or traded across the USA. They are a mixture of many different breeds from long ago, some containing more blood from certain breeds then from others depending on the geographical location they came from. When blood from one of the original breeds that was crossed in comes together and that particular breed had an abundance of problems, surely those problems would show up once again. As the breed becomes more and more pure in its own strain as a Rat Terrier the genes start doubling up for good and for bad. In the early stages of the Rat, there were many outcrosses made to several different breeds. This is called Hybrid Vigor. The dogs were very hardy because they are carrying many genes that are different from each other. Once those genes start doubling up, for good or bad you start to see the problems that were always there in the first place.

The bottom line is that in every breed there are problems and those problems are going to show up from time to time. The only way to start producing dogs free of defects is to watch our lines closely for problems that crop up and correct them immediately. That means to use one of the techniques as described above. There is no sense in blaming owners, breeders but only ourselves. We all know when a problem arises and common sense should take care of the spread of the problems. Breeders should try to find any defects and halt them. Not blame other breeders for bad dogs which they may not have known about in the first place., but talk about what might have gone wrong somewhere in the lines and don’t repeat the mistake. Owners should at least notify a breeder if a pup they bought came up with a problem somewhere down the line. If a breeder is unaware of any pups produced with a problem there is nothing they can do about it. We all try and do our best, lets continue to do that and keep the Rat Terrier breed going as defect and disease free as possible.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Darren Hollis
Thanks man, When we can discuss breeding without all agreeing on what is best.I got lucky in my opinion with my Frosty female.Her whole litter made decent coonhounds.This is from a complete outcross.To keep this blood up close I am seriously thinking of trying it.Like I said before I know that this is a sore spot for some folks.(SORRY NORTHERNBLU).If you study what Dave Dean has done over the years it ain't far from what we are discussing.Do you hunt Northern Blue Hammer stock?Not meant to be offensive, just wanted to know what you are hunting.Thanks in advance for your input on this sublect.
Darren

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The great English breeder, Kelly Stagner, once told me that inbreeding was the tool that cleaned the mud out of the water. Outcrossing was the rain that put more water in the pond. Both were ecential to breeding. His Platte Valley hounds are the base for almost every english hound there is. You would be hard pressed to find one who didnt carry Platte Valley some where in there extended pedegree.His method was 3 times in, one time out.
I once owned a gyp that was a direct daughter to NtChCH Hamiltons Blue Boy Ten. She was also his granddaughter, from a father/daughter cross. She was the best layup dog I ever owned. Ten was known for his pups ability to tree layups. Kawinkedink? I think not. I breed her to GrNtCh Durango,who was sired by Tens full brother GrNtChTimberstar Buck. Those were probly the closest Jr X Wendy pups ever breed, sence the accual Jr X Wendy cross. 3 different pups from this litter, blew the top out of the first tree with a coon in it, they ever saw. It was the best example of true instinct I ever saw. Im talkin toenails dug in, slobberin,eyes buged out, bellyhuggin 120+barks per minute, treein monsters.
THE FIRST TREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This is the best thread to date on the subject of linebreeding. I am glad to see that culling either by actual euthanasia or neuter/spay has been strongly stressed. This applies not only to the affected individuals but also to any littermates and parents of these affected individuals. Linebreeding works but only if very close vigilance is given to the outcome.

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quote:
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Originally posted by JiM
....THANK GOD FOR BENCH SHOWS!!!!!!! Anything that keeps women and crybabies out of the woods has my support.
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Location: Oklahoma
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Rob , why in the world do you gotta take up ten pages pasting something you found on the net .. just put up a stinking link before I get a cramp scrolling through that crap .

Rip , genes have mass and are real .. you cannot extract them from a dog or gene pool ... you can turn them off or on .... but you cannot remove them .

Look at the history of any working breed and study it's progression through invention , establishment , registration and perpetuation .. the info that is right there at the surface is there for anyone who wants to understand it and use it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by sheepster
quote from rip

Justin, yes you most certianly can "remove" a gene from a lineage. It's been done a blue million times. You don't remove it from a single animal, you remove the animals carrying that gene from the gene pool.



so when is all this face barking and growling gonna get REMOVED????? huh????

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Location: MN
Posts: 377

The physical appearance portion of the breeding equation is relatively simple in comparison to the others.

The next portion would be voice/nose. How good are they? How they use them would come under the next paragraph.

The really difficult portion is relating to the performance, and of that the mental portion is most difficult to gauge. For that, there is no substitute for a knowledgable trainer(s) and consistency in evaluation. IMO

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Posts: 3348

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Rob , why in the world do you gotta take up ten pages pasting something you found on the net .. just put up a stinking link before I get a cramp scrolling through that crap .

Rip , genes have mass and are real .. you cannot extract them from a dog or gene pool ... you can turn them off or on .... but you cannot remove them .

Look at the history of any working breed and study it's progression through invention , establishment , registration and perpetuation .. the info that is right there at the surface is there for anyone who wants to understand it and use it.

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"If you are mad as hell and aren't gonna take it anymore, grab your rifle and head outside. If you're the only one with a rifle screaming like a maniac, go back inside. It isn't time yet."

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

you guys lost me a long time ago,,,good luck

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: MN
Posts: 377

LOL, we are just hashing over the things that Hans Wagner, Dave Dean, Plott .........................all did to make exceptional and consistant performers.

Justin, just be nice, you have plenty of good info to add.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by zace
LOL, we are just hashing over the things that Hans Wagner, Dave Dean, Plott .........................all did to make exceptional and consistant performers.

Justin, just be nice, you have plenty of good info to add.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

It's a known fact that line breeding is the only way to build a family with similar or same traits but tell me how these line bred dogs are suppose to improve in performance, you can't duplicate and you don't want to change the charater of these traits so there would very little chance of improvement. Is this right?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Darren Hollis
So in a Father&Daughter cross more of the same genes should be evident in the pups correct.Thus the pups outcome should be of a more predictable nature.Shoot man I got this stuff!!LOL
Darren



GOOD LUCK HUNTING SHEEP
I'M GOIN TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Darren

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
It's a known fact that line breeding is the only way to build a family with similar or same traits but tell me how these line bred dogs are suppose to improve in performance, you can't duplicate and you don't want to change the charater of these traits so there would very little chance of improvement. Is this right?

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

Show me how you improve on ability by linebreedig and tell me one coonhound strain that has improved by these means.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Show me how you improve on ability by linebreedig and tell me one coonhound strain that has improved by these means.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: MN
Posts: 377

Just as there will be underperformers, there will also be standard performers, and occasionally overperformers from a litter. Line or inbred litters are no different. The real key is figuring out which is which. Thats were the trainer(s) comes in.


These traits must be natural and not trained in.


When its all said and done, you can consider yourself lucky if you need to make the decision to inbreed. That would mean you had determined that a dog was near perfect or your choice to base the majority of future breedings . If you don't feel the need to breed withing a line to some extent you should be looking for a different line. IMO

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