Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

quote:

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Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
GRADY....I WILL SAY THIS PUT THE 25.00 DOLLARS UP AND QUESTION IT TAKE IT BACK TO THE CLUB AND SEE WHAT ALL THEM IFS WILL GET YOU....

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Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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COME ON DUDE, IM NOT A DIP!!! I HAVE BEEN COMPETITION HUNTING FOR 20 YEARS.....IM SAYING IN ANY SITUATION TAKE MINUS LIKE A MAN WHEN ITS DESERVED. PEOPLE COME UP WITH SOME HUM DINGERS TO GET OUT OF MINUS. BUT TO SAY TO PLUS A DOG CAUGHT IN A TRAP CAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING TOWARD A TREE BARKING IS ONE I THOUGHT ID NEVER HEAR!!! NO MATTER HOW BIG THE TRAP,THEY AIN'T TREED AND WERE CALLED SO.

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Registered: Feb 2012
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AND YOU CAN'T HUNT IN A HUNDRED ACRE TRAP!!!! ITS AGAINST THE RULES TO COMP HUNT IN AN ENCLOSURE. LOL

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 93

Dogs cannot "tree" from a trap.....they can bark from a trap, they can smell from a trap, they can't tree "FROM" a trap, but however they can tree "IN" a trap if it was a big "lot".......at the end of the day, the dogs we're not on the tree, barking from a trap is not considered treeing.....bad break? maybe so......end of the world? Sure its not.....also the handlers did declare their dogs TREED, but however the dogs we're instead, TRAPPED. Sorry, they we're declared treed, they should have been on the wood.....if they we're treed then ended up in a trap, then either the dogs left the tree and got entrapped, which would be minus for the positions called, or the handlers should have known something was odd by the sound of theiur dogs...dogs mess up, or a handlers mistake, either way, its Minus boys

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Last edited by Boone McCrary on 03-14-2012 at 10:01 PM

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

quote:

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Originally posted by tuck@tree
AND YOU CAN'T HUNT IN A HUNDRED ACRE TRAP!!!! ITS AGAINST THE RULES TO COMP HUNT IN AN ENCLOSURE. LOL

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Not that this horse isnt dead...

If we are to minus their tree points, Im left wondering why we dont also minus their strike?

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Not that this horse isnt dead...

If we are to minus their tree points, Im left wondering why we dont also minus their strike?

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UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

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Registered: Feb 2012
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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Not that this horse isnt dead...

If we are to minus their tree points, Im left wondering why we dont also minus their strike?

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 93

exactly right

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

I hate to belabor the point here, as this is probably a once in a million situation but...

The trap is iterfering with the dogs ability to do anything....trail or tree.....We delete the strike (because of the trap) Im pretty sure the same trap is also interfering with the dogs ability to tree.


The logic seems inconsistant to me.

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Registered: Feb 2012
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YES THE TRAP KEPT THEM FROM FINISHING THE TRAIL,THEREFOR THEY NEVER TREED AND WERE CALLED SO HENCE THE MINUS. IF THEY WERE IN FACT TREED AND THEN GOT TRAPPED WELL THEY LEFT THE TREE AND AGAIN MINUS...THEY WERE EITHER CALLED TREED FALSELY BY THE HANDLERS OR LEFT THE TREE. EITHER WAY ITS MINUS.

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Registered: Sep 2010
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You just never know when Allen is gonna come down hardcore with his ruling. I mean a dog in a trap is minused for not showing treed, but then a dog can turn around cover two trees 60 feet apart if you find somehow that they connect somewhere down the road and that is perfectly acceptable.
It's a good thing these oddball situations don't actually happen very often because nobody is gonna get them all right except the one making the rules.

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I will minus a dog covering two trees every time!!! WHETHER THEY CONNECT OR NOT!!!! A DOG BEST BE OSHOWING ME A TREE AT THE END OF THE TRAIL BY SITTING AT THE BASE OF THE TREE LOOKING AND BARKING UP,ON ALL FOURS LOOKING AND BARKING UP OR LAID UP ON THE TREE LIKE A LIZARD!!!!! IF ONE PUTS ITS NOSE TO THE GROUND EVEN FOR A SECOND OR SNIFFS ANOTHER TREE ITS MINUSED IF IM JUDGING! I HAVE MINESED SEVERAL MINE INCLUDED AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM ON A CAST FOR THAT ISSUE. EVEN IF TREES CONNECT SOMEWHERE THE COON ONLY WENT UP ONE OF THEM AND THE DOG BEST HAVE THAT DECISION MADE BEFORE THE JUDGE GETS A LIGHT ON THEM!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck@tree
I will minus a dog covering two trees every time!!! WHETHER THEY CONNECT OR NOT!!!! A DOG BEST BE OSHOWING ME A TREE AT THE END OF THE TRAIL BY SITTING AT THE BASE OF THE TREE LOOKING AND BARKING UP,ON ALL FOURS LOOKING AND BARKING UP OR LAID UP ON THE TREE LIKE A LIZARD!!!!! IF ONE PUTS ITS NOSE TO THE GROUND EVEN FOR A SECOND OR SNIFFS ANOTHER TREE ITS MINUSED IF IM JUDGING! I HAVE MINESED SEVERAL MINE INCLUDED AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM ON A CAST FOR THAT ISSUE. EVEN IF TREES CONNECT SOMEWHERE THE COON ONLY WENT UP ONE OF THEM AND THE DOG BEST HAVE THAT DECISION MADE BEFORE THE JUDGE GETS A LIGHT ON THEM!

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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck@tree
I will minus a dog covering two trees every time!!! WHETHER THEY CONNECT OR NOT!!!! A DOG BEST BE OSHOWING ME A TREE AT THE END OF THE TRAIL BY SITTING AT THE BASE OF THE TREE LOOKING AND BARKING UP,ON ALL FOURS LOOKING AND BARKING UP OR LAID UP ON THE TREE LIKE A LIZARD!!!!! IF ONE PUTS ITS NOSE TO THE GROUND EVEN FOR A SECOND OR SNIFFS ANOTHER TREE ITS MINUSED IF IM JUDGING! I HAVE MINESED SEVERAL MINE INCLUDED AND NEVER HAD A PROBLEM ON A CAST FOR THAT ISSUE. EVEN IF TREES CONNECT SOMEWHERE THE COON ONLY WENT UP ONE OF THEM AND THE DOG BEST HAVE THAT DECISION MADE BEFORE THE JUDGE GETS A LIGHT ON THEM!

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: milan,mi
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if those 2 dogs were 15 ft from the tree in the trap like what was said and looking up treeing every breath and the coon is seen plus em up too

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Then you would be breaking the rules, no different than if you were plussing possums.

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Registered: Sep 2003
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KNOW ONE WANTS TO GET MINUSED THATS WHY ITS EITHER 1000 CIRCLE OR 1000 PLUS....

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quote:

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Originally posted by smokin-1-mo
KNOW ONE WANTS TO GET MINUSED THATS WHY ITS EITHER 1000 CIRCLE OR 1000 PLUS....

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Location: Morrison TN
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quote:

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Originally posted by tuck@tree
PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RULE I WOULD NE BREAKING? I HAVE BEEN JUDGING PKC AND UKC CAST FOR TWENTY YEARS AND BELIEVE ME I KNOW THE RULES....NOT THAT I DON'T MAKE A MISTAKE FROM TIME TO TIME... PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RULE SAYS A DOG CALLED TREED CAN BE TRAILING AROUND OR CHECKING OTHER TREES AND STILL BE SCORED TREED?????????? PEOPLE DON'T HATE THE HUNTS BECAUSE OF JUDGES LIKE ME....THEY HATE THE HUNTS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE WITH WEAK DOGS PISSIN AND MOANING CRYING,"I GOT CHEATED" !!!! WHEN I GO TO A HUNT LOCAL OR ANYWHERE CLOSE " PKC OR UKC" I AM WITHOUT FAIL ASKED TO JUDGE BECAUSE I AM HONEST AND FAIR!!!! AND KNOWLEDGEABLE!!!! I DO MAKE MISTAKES BUT I WILL MINUS MY DOG THE QUICKEST!!!!! THEY EITHER STRIKE TRAIL AND TREE PROPERLY OR THEY ARE mINUSED END OF STORY...A DOG CANNOT BE TRAILING FROM A TREE THEY HAVE BEEN DECLARED TREED ON WITH NOSE TO THE GROUND FOR 60the FEET CHECKING ANOTHER TREE CAUSE THE LIMBS MAKE SLIGHT CONTACT!!! GOOD GRIEF!!! And im not talking about a dog that comes to his handler a "SHORT DISTANCE" and goes back without trailing and shows tree properly! That is fine.

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According to UKC rules if trees are together they are considered ONE TREE so the dog hasn't left the tree when he bounces back and forth between the two trees that are scored as one. Therefore you are blatantly going against UKC rules when you say you would minus the dog even if the trees together. That is their official interpretation. One tree at top, one tree at bottom so he hasn't left the tree even if he trees up both trunks.

Also, there is no rule about a dog putting it's nose on the ground. If it puts its head down on the way back to the tree after meeting his handler, if that's all he has done is just drop his head on the way back then it would be against the rules to minus that dog as well because the rules specificially allow a dog to meet it's handler without being minused. Todd Kellum, when he was the official rule interpreter, stated that a dog putting it's nose down was not an automatic minus. You said you would minus a dog every time it puts it's nose on the ground, but clearly a dog is allowed to put it's nose down on the way back to a tree per UKC rules. You said you would minus the dog no matter what, and that's a blatant rules violation.

That statement of "every time a dogs nose goes down he's minused" is no different than "the dog can do anything it wants due to the canopy of the tree rule". Neither is a rule. One is someone making something up just to minus someone, and the other is someone making up something to keep a dog from being minused. Neither are correct.

Minusing a dog when it shouldn't be minused (such as when trees are touching and scored as one and the dog bounces back and forth) is no different than plussing a possum. Both are blatantly against the rules.

For the record, I don't have a dog that meets me off the tree or bounces. He is an on the wood treedog but that doesn't mean I don't know that every dog has a different tree style and I know a dog doesn't have to have it's toenails dug into the wood like mine does to get plussed on the tree.

You really can't make blanket statements about scoring a tree. You have to be there to see it. There's a difference in milling and going back to the tree. I can tell the difference and both of them may actually put their nose down. The one milling gets minused, the one going back to the tree doesn't but I can't tell you over a message board LOL.

Not following rules to apply more minus is the same offense as not following rules to avoid minus or to give plus points (plussing a possum). No difference.

The guys that are itchin to minus and just looking for an excuse to minus are just as bad as the guys lookin for a way not to minus. Both whine and cry about getting cheated. One whines "they cheated cause they minused my dog" and the other whines "they cheated cause they wouldn't take minus for breathin". LOL.

If you judge fairly and in the middle then you hear it from both sides

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Last edited by Rip on 03-15-2012 at 04:30 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
According to UKC rules if trees are together they are considered ONE TREE so the dog hasn't left the tree when he bounces back and forth between the two trees that are scored as one. Therefore you are blatantly going against UKC rules when you say you would minus the dog even if the trees together. That is their official interpretation. One tree at top, one tree at bottom so he hasn't left the tree even if he trees up both trunks.

Also, there is no rule about a dog putting it's nose on the ground. If it puts its head down on the way back to the tree after meeting his handler, if that's all he has done is just drop his head on the way back then it would be against the rules to minus that dog as well because the rules specificially allow a dog to meet it's handler without being minused. Todd Kellum, when he was the official rule interpreter, stated that a dog putting it's nose down was not an automatic minus. You said you would minus a dog every time it puts it's nose on the ground, but clearly a dog is allowed to put it's nose down on the way back to a tree per UKC rules. You said you would minus the dog no matter what, and that's a blatant rules violation.


The tree touch rule is so two dogs don't get scored for 125the on one coon....or to keep a dog from getting MINUSED on a crossed out coon...come on I know the rules....its not so a dog can trail back and forth between them!!! If my dog puts his nose to the ground off the tree I will minus him and yours. The rules say if a dog is called treed and leaves he is MINUSED. If he pulls from a tree puts his nose to the ground to go check another tree HE LEFT!!!

That statement of "every time a dogs nose goes down he's minused" is no different than "the dog can do anything it wants due to the canopy of the tree rule". Neither is a rule. One is someone making something up just to minus someone, and the other is someone making up something to keep a dog from being minused. Neither are correct.

Minusing a dog when it shouldn't be minused (such as when trees are touching and scored as one and the dog bounces back and forth) is no different than plussing a possum. Both are blatantly against the rules.

For the record, I don't have a dog that meets me off the tree or bounces. He is an on the wood treedog but that doesn't mean I don't know that every dog has a different tree style and I know a dog doesn't have to have it's toenails dug into the wood like mine does to get plussed on the tree.

You really can't make blanket statements about scoring a tree. You have to be there to see it. There's a difference in milling and going back to the tree. I can tell the difference and both of them may actually put their nose down. The one milling gets minused, the one going back to the tree doesn't but I can't tell you over a message board LOL.

Not following rules to apply more minus is the same offense as not following rules to avoid minus or to give plus points (plussing a possum). No difference.

The guys that are itchin to minus and just looking for an excuse to minus are just as bad as the guys lookin for a way not to minus. Both whine and cry about getting cheated. One whines "they cheated cause they minused my dog" and the other whines "they cheated cause they wouldn't take minus for breathin". LOL.

If you judge fairly and in the middle then you hear it from both sides

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Registered: Jun 2003
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You keep saying you know the rules but you are missing a big one here.

The dog can go back and forth between two trees that are together and not be minused. You can watch him do it 5 times and he's still not minused according to official UKC rules.

UKC says if it's one tree at the top it's one tree at the bottom. It's their official position. Trees 10 feet apart but intertwined at the top the dog is free to tree on both of them.

It's not my rule, it's UKC's rule. I didn't make it up. I just have to follow it.

If you don't follow that rule and minus that dog then you are breaking their rules.

Allan just reiterated that rule on a different thread. You can NOT legally minus a dog for bouncing between two trunks that are considered the same tree.

ONE TREE AT TOP ONE TREE AT BOTTOM.

He didn't officially leave the tree because the trees are officially one so he may be running back and forth 10 feet apart treein up both trees but by the rules he is allowed to do that.

If you minus that dog then you broke the rules.

Also, just because a dog puts it's head down that doesn't mean it's minused. UKC has been clear on that one too. If the dog is on trail again then yes it's minused. But just because a dog put it's head down DOES NOT MEAN IT'S BACK ON TRAIL. It might, but it might not and you have to be there to know what is going on. They are allowed to put their head down if they are just meeting the handler and goin back to the tree.

Again, not my rule UKC's rule. I didn't make it, I just have to follow it if I want to play by the rules. If I don't then I am cheating. Doesn't matter what I think of a dog that meets me off the tree, nor of one that bounces between two tree trunks. It only matters that they are ALLOWED TO DO THIS by UKC rules. When I signed up for the hunt I agreed to abide by those rules regardless of what I thought abou them. So does everybody else.

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I keep saying I know the rules because I do! O have the Ukc and Pkc and and rules downloaded on my phone and I read them in my spare time. I am very serious about it! I have read them fourty eleven times! Occasionally there are situations where a common sense judgement must be made. Two trees that mingle will be scored as one Iknow. This keeps dogs protected from being MINUSED on a crossed out coon and I love the rule. It also keeps two dogs from being scored first tree on one coon. The rules also say of a dog leaves tree once declared treed he os minused, now it doesn't matter if he comes back to the same tree or another trunk of the same tree fifteen or sixty feet away " as was the tree in the previous discussion". If a dog comes off tree....puts his nose to the ground....he is on trail!!! All rules are written to be applied using common sense decision making to reward the dog that strikes....trails...and trees a raccoon....and that's how I judge and I have never had any complaints. I have circled trees for dogs that were gut slick because of the microscopic chance that a tiny coon could be hiding in a big fork,and caused my accurate dog who wasn't there to lose the cast. If you knew me you would know im not itching.g to minus. But I will be barred before I will go along with plussing a dog treed when he is on trail checking other trees. AND THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT! "A quote from forrest gump" I love him!!! GOOD NITE SIR:-)

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

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Originally posted by tuck@tree
I keep saying I know the rules because I do! O have the Ukc and Pkc and and rules downloaded on my phone and I read them in my spare time. I am very serious about it! I have read them fourty eleven times! Occasionally there are situations where a common sense judgement must be made. Two trees that mingle will be scored as one Iknow. This keeps dogs protected from being MINUSED on a crossed out coon and I love the rule. It also keeps two dogs from being scored first tree on one coon. The rules also say of a dog leaves tree once declared treed he os minused, now it doesn't matter if he comes back to the same tree or another trunk of the same tree fifteen or sixty feet away " as was the tree in the previous discussion". If a dog comes off tree....puts his nose to the ground....he is on trail!!! All rules are written to be applied using common sense decision making to reward the dog that strikes....trails...and trees a raccoon....and that's how I judge and I have never had any complaints. I have circled trees for dogs that were gut slick because of the microscopic chance that a tiny coon could be hiding in a big fork,and caused my accurate dog who wasn't there to lose the cast. If you knew me you would know im not itching.g to minus. But I will be barred before I will go along with plussing a dog treed when he is on trail checking other trees. AND THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT! "A quote from forrest gump" I love him!!! GOOD NITE SIR:-)

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So you will KNOWINGLY violate UKC rules, because that's what you are saying, you will violate them even though you know better because that's just the way you want to score it.

Here is Allen, official UKC rule interpreter

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Five, six, seven years ago we did an article on this very topic. I searched around the Advisor Columns listed on the homepage but don't find it there. Seems like it was titled "Scored as One at the Top is Scored as One at The Bottom", or something to that affect.

Regardless, of course we can all make some dang good arguments when considering several different variables that might play a part when it comes to dogs moving about between trees that are scored as one. So, to eliminate the sake of argument on any such variables we simply said to not minus dogs for moving between trees when your scoring more than one as one.

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UKC officially says that if the dog goes back and forth between the trunks of two trees that are declared one then BY DEFINITION HE HA NOT LEFT THE TREE. YOU CAN NOT MINUS HIM FOR THAT BECAUSE IT IS ONE TREE.

Can you not see that is wrong to blatantly go against what UKC says is the way to score it?

That's what's wrong with the hunts now, people scoring things the way they want instead of by UKC rules and policies.

It's in black and white, do not minus dogs for moving between trees when the trees are scored as one. If you do that like you claim you will every time then you will be knowingly breaking the rules from now on, cause now you know LOL.

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Last edited by Rip on 03-15-2012 at 06:39 AM

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Well I dont agree with it but its official I guess they are minused.

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