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I would have to say the hunt is so big because of the event. The wayI look at it is that this is the only place to go where you have so much variety in hounds equipment and people. Every ad you see in bloodlines for equipment most of them are going to be there so everyone wants to go and see it. The hunt is big because it is Autumn Oaks big name been around for 52 years now? People want the title. I have been to the to the other kennel club and was only one vendor and that was it. This is what I call the disneyland of the coonhunting world. And this is only my 3rd year going but as long as I can I am going. Myfirst one was the 50 year and what a year to start going. We came down that road between the cornfields and when it opened up to the fairgrounds with nothing but trailers and dogs and cars I was speechless. When we first starting walking around my wife even said we have to come here every year. Now she maybe regreting that. But I still enjoy it.
Doug

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Location: Central Michigan
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It is that big because of both. I always enjoy going, but I don't go near as much before we had kids. The drive is long enough (6hrs), but I swear they have an issue with orange barrels down there.

Unfortunately, I started a family tradition several years ago. My entire family mom, dad, my brothers, and my sister and of course as many kids as possible get together with all of our firearms in a grave pit up north. We set up a covered table, bring paper targets and clay pigeons and more ammo than a person can easily carry. We also bring snacks and drinks. We start right after lunch and shot all the way until dinner when we order pizza from the local pizza joint. This year everyone still wants to go even though it may be a little more solemn this year as my dad will not be there.

The last time I went to Autumn Oaks I had the 6 hrs drive there and we camped out. I can't speak for anyone else but now days my body hates cots! Then there was the 6hrs drive home, and the 2 hours drive up north to make it there. It was a bit too much. So for now, I will just have to settle for missing Oaks for awhile.

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Oaks is the state fair and it draws for the same reason a state fair draws and they hunt it for the same reason they take their pigs and rabbits to the state fair, so they can say they did. A cast win at Oaks is a respectable achievement, I really have trouble remembering who won it the year before. I think all of this is true with both Oaks and the Grand American and maybe to a little lesser extent, the Winter Classic. These events are a major coonhunters reunion.

The World Hunt is the hunt you go to for no other reason than the desire to win it. It's basically nothing but a hunt. Nothing at all like Oaks.

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Registered: Dec 2005
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I believe that over half of the people that attend oaks just go for a good time . The vendors, fellowship; just to hang out.

I would say oaks is big because of the hunt, and the event both..While every one wants to win autumn oaks and hold the achievement of National Gr.nt. i believe that the major percentage of people are just there over tradition and love of the event more than anything. I like going, its the only big event that has enough variety of vendors to keep me busy a good part of a full day. But after 1 day, im done and ready to leave big time.

Ive been to the Grand American, went last year and i'd say its the same story as autumn oaks. except it draws twice as many people at it than oaks and again, i think people show up as tradition, just as if its some kind of local holiday.

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Bt

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

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OK... another new topic. Would you fault a dog for chopping on track, as opposed to a bawl or squall???

I have a 7 month old female that has great looks, is a hard tree dog, and has been doing it by herself for a couple months now. In fact, she split treed from older dogs, twice last night. The only fault I have with her, is that she has a chop on track.

If it's a hot track she barks a lot, otherwise it's usually just a few chops here and there. Which is a whole lot more tolerable. She has a distinct locate, and if it's not a supoer hot track, it's pretty apparent when she's treed.

But... I sure wish she was more representative of what I would call a hound's voice.

My question is, is this just a matter of preference or a negative trait??? Should one think long and hard about breeding her and producing more chop mouth track dogs, or would most find it completely acceptable?

David Schmidt

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Location: norlina nc
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Dave.. Me personally the voice of a hound is totally a matter of what you like. I myself do not cosider the voice of a hound as a reason to keep or breed. Well as long as its loud enough to suit me. Chop,ball,squall, any mixture is fine with me. Im sure some will disagree but I just dont see putting much weight in the sound of the voice ( as long as its loud enough to hear)

Jeremy

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Jeremy Harris

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forever and a year I wanted nothing but a bawl mouth track dog and approximately 15 years ago or so I happened across a little fireball that was chop all the way with an awesome locate. I hunted her a while and just wasn't sure if I could take a chop mouth track dog. I buried her here at the age of 14 and would trade everything I am hunting right now just to have that ole mouthy female back....

I think most of it is we all start with a certain idea of how a hound is supposed to sound and as most people are don't really like alot of change. I for 1 won't ever use a chop vs. a bawl as a decideing factor anymore............

performance , performance and more performance with a shot of blanket back red head thrown in lol

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Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:

---

Originally posted by warn
forever and a year I wanted nothing but a bawl mouth track dog and approximately 15 years ago or so I happened across a little fireball that was chop all the way with an awesome locate. I hunted her a while and just wasn't sure if I could take a chop mouth track dog. I buried her here at the age of 14 and would trade everything I am hunting right now just to have that ole mouthy female back....

I think most of it is we all start with a certain idea of how a hound is supposed to sound and as most people are don't really like alot of change. I for 1 won't ever use a chop vs. a bawl as a decideing factor anymore............

performance , performance and more performance with a shot of blanket back red head thrown in lol

---

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Jeremy Harris

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For me personally it would be based more so on preference. I want to listen to an open, bawl mouth on trail. Having a chop mouth on track would be undesireable but when you're describing a 7 month old pup that has all the other tools it probably wouldn't be very intelligent to automatically discount it as a breedeer based on that one trait. But, I would not consider breeding a dog if it doesn't at least sound "houndy". Or, if it doesn't have a noticable locate and/or change over when it trees.
If I do not enjoy listening to the dog I probably wouldn't hunt it, I would sell it. Someone else would then be making the decision about breeding her or not.

OT(but related-sort of) Most bawl mouth dogs tree with a chop, some tree with a bawl. Chop mouth and silent dogs tree with a chop. How come you never see a chop or silent dog tree with a bawl?

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Matter of opinion I would say. My Blue female is bawl squal on track and bawl chop on tree. But I really do prefer a dog with an easy to call locate.

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Location: Central Michigan
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All of the chop mouth track dogs that I have hunted with and/or owned didn't have enough change over for me.

Two of my buddies had a chop mouth track that they call in a an instant, but it didn't matter how much I hunted with them I couldn't tell when they treed.

I need a big ole dying locate, triple chop, turkey chop or something just plain ole clear and easy sounding. I guess I have never been accused of picking up subtleties.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
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Chop mouths belong on Curs....we are breeding HOUNDS that should sound like a hound.

If we are not selective in our breeding, we will soon loose that hound mouth, and we will wish we had done it differently.....

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Here's a loaded question, Joe... Would you breed a silent, track dog?

David Schmidt

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Location: Burlington, CT
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By the way... In the old coffee shops there were usually multiple conversations at once. So anyone, feel free to throw out another topic.

David Schmidt

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I will throw in another topic. I posted this in another thread and got one person to respond. Since we are talking about what we prefer, I have a new female hoping to breed her in a few if she is worth it. How do you guys go about figuring out what sire or stud you would pick for your female. Do you go by if it is a proven reproducer. Or do you pick one with the traits you like and what in your line. track ability treeing ability or silent track coloring show quality I mean you are not going to get a stud with all of that wrapped in one. Not saying they are not out there but but if they were that easy to get ahold of we would all have the dog we want. So which one do you go with first. the reproducer is a good choice but what if he is not what you want on track or tree. Do you deal with that.
In my case I am looking to breed my new female to get a male that I want, I can watch him grow and pick him out from the litter. This may not be the way others would do it but it made sense to me to start with a female hope she turns out and then breed her with a stud that i like or I know is proven but again what am I looking for in that stud?
Doug Stone

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show qualities!!! so much for that coffee shop.
the biggest gator will be the best at the coffee shop
and the loudest will be the most impresive dog dont
matter how it got there.

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yes show qualities. what is wrong with breeding for both. I for one enjoy putting my hunting hound on the bench and winning. I think it matters how it got there. If you are talking tracking ability, I for one dont like a silent dog on the track.Or a dog that chops I like a bawl and that is one quality I would like to breed for. Matter of opinion though.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
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Dave,

You know full well that I have a female here that is very, very tight on track, and yes....I breed her.

But here is the Paul Harvey version. When she was a young dog, she was one of the most mouthy dogs I have ever seen. Over time she was "corrected" by her previous owner, and she "learned" to be quiet. I can to this day 8 years later, put her in a bean field, and trust me she won't be silent.

So she is not genetically silent, but rather she is man made tight, and she has had WAY too many coon shot to her which just adds to the mix.

I've bred her several times, and have had a lot of success with her pups, all of which are open on the ground.

She has a pleasing bawl on track, a triple bawl locate, and rolls over to a steady chop, as do her pups.

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Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Oak Ridge
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Dave,

You know full well that I have a female here that is very, very tight on track, and yes....I breed her.

But here is the Paul Harvey version. When she was a young dog, she was one of the most mouthy dogs I have ever seen. Over time she was "corrected" by her previous owner, and she "learned" to be quiet. I can to this day 8 years later, put her in a bean field, and trust me she won't be silent.

So she is not genetically silent, but rather she is man made tight, and she has had WAY too many coon shot to her which just adds to the mix.

I've bred her several times, and have had a lot of success with her pups, all of which are open on the ground.

She has a pleasing bawl on track, a triple bawl locate, and rolls over to a steady chop, as do her pups.

---

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
I have noticed than line breeding takes the track mouth out of a hound. What do you say to that Joe? I am quite convinced that linebreeding, for instance the clover line, takes the mouth out of a dog. Sure some may get open on track but as a whole they don't open much at all.

---

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In the nite hunts what are you typically getting struck in at Joe? Thanks for the response.

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Location: Indiana
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Hunted Cube in a PKC hunt last weekend. Both nights we only turned em loose for full strike points once.....one on Friday, one on Saturday.

Friday night, struck for 100 and treed for 100. Saturday night, struck for 100, treed for 100.....

I normally have a high end strike. I got lucky and drew "honest" strike dogs both nights this weekend.....

Thorn, (who is not line bred anything) is usually a second or third strike dog.....He's not tight, just won't strike until he knows where the coon is going.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Joe - you saw where I was going, but you're right, I didn't know "the rest of the story".

Maybe I'm trying to rationalize or justify the future breeding of this pup, becasue I'm really starting to like her, or maybe voice really doesn't matter. Yes, I would ideally like a bawl on track and clear chop on tree. But I would also prefer a saddle back, red headed male that meets the standard to a tee, is super load, will tree a coon any night of the year and never, never slicks. But I don't think MY perfect hound exists. So the question is what is acceptable. Because, an open spotted dog or even a blanket back, doesn't meet my ideal picture. For that matter, a squall instead of a bawl is perhaps not "ideal" either.

So... if they look like a hound, act like a hound, and are a talented hunter, how much more do you ask for??? Do you say nay, nay, they have a chop mouth and are blanket back, so I won't breed them???

Many have seen me on this board debating why we should or should not breed a dog that doesn't meet a particular breed's standard. But chop versus bawl on track, isn't defined in the standard, so there's no clear guideline. Yes, I don't want to negatively influence the breed or make Walkers into Curs, but I'm not sure that, that's not an exageration here. Yes, a bawl on track is a hound trait, and a higher pitch chop is a cur trait, but Joe there are some cosmetic and dimensional aspects to the breed standard that you've over-looked in the past, right?

Again, maybe I'm just rationalizing a decision, but that's why I opened it up for healthy debate and conversation.

David Schmidt

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Doug - there are certainly many with more breeding expertise on here than me. But I'll throw in my two cents...

I think the breeding decision should go farther than the specific dog you are looking at, or their statistics. I do think statistics are important, because not all dogs can reproduce one as good or better than themselves. But they can be misleading. And just becasue a dog has a certain set of traits, doesn't mean that's the norm in their line, and therefore doesn't mean there's a high likelihood of passing them on.

So... here's what I've been doing. Yes, I look at the top producers list, but I also look to see who they are out of, and how many related lines or dogs are on the list. I also look at the dams. Then I look into the normal traits of those dogs, and their ancestors. Of course this is much easier if you own the line and line breed it, as everything is well understood, and less is left up to chance.

In summary, I would look for what traits you like, what traits are in the stud and it's line, and what traits are in your dam that you want to continue or compliment.

The most important thing to remember is that any dog can be an anomoly, unlike anything else in it's line. They may therfore be a great hound, but not statistically likely to pass on those traits, that may be more of a "fluke". So look at the whole pedigree, from a trait and ability perspective, not just titles. We all know that there are some very negative traits that will help you win titles, that won't make the dog a pleasure to hunt. Unless you only do it on weekends...

David Schmidt

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