Registered: Jan 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 710

quote:

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
I won't talk about cheating on casts, I will talk about cheating clubs. Some clubs rig the draw out, some clubs allow hunters fill out scorecards sitting in the truck, some clubs already have the winner picked out in the coffee shop the day before. These same clubs do not hold meetings or elections as their UKC Charter requires, appently, the cheats run the club for life.

And, whether any of you believe it or not, I have been offered titles put on my dogs in other states. I didn't have to send my dog, just the paper work.

The last Nite Hunt cast I was on, 3 cheats voted on cirling a tree slick as a telephone pole. 2 "verteran handlers" were teaching a young hunter on his first cast how it was done. I was the judge. Instead of arguing, I just signed off on the scorecard, handed it to one of the cast members, and left. I have never went on a hound Nite Hunt cast again and don't reckon I ever will.

I have seen the same kind of stuff on beagle casts. I won 7 out of the last beagle casts I was on, I have a dominant beagle, but there was so much blatent cheating going on other casts, I refuse to be part of it. I am talking about guys sitting in the truck filling out score cards. I won fair and square. Instead of being the judge like I could have been, I chose to carry my camcorder, so I have proof how my dog won. I don't believe some UKC officials care about how some folks win as long as the fees are sent in.

Not all clubs or casts are cheats. I have been on some great casts with some great sportsmen. I am a member od 7-8 local coon clubs and as far as I know, everything is done by the book. But, some of the blatent cheating that does go on has soured my outlook on the whole process and I am not going to be part of it. You guys can compete all you want to but I want to see your dog in the brush or in the woods before I buy it. I won't take your titles as proof of anything. Nuff said.

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Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Georgetown, KY
Posts: 481

Yall must be blind ppl cheat all the time in nite hunts!

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Thorndale,Pa
Posts: 316

I"ll add my $.02. ...The last 4 Cast/ hunts i have been on/in were not a problem at all. I only won 1 of them. My suggestion would be if most people answered truthfully everytime something comes up instead of trying to figure out what strike you have or what tree you have or if you really struck your dog or someone elses hound ,just be a grown up about it and answer honestly. I enjoy going to these hunts to see the dogs . The different hounds , the way they hunt and handle. Not to see a professional, want a be handler win with a dog he has never heard in the woods before. I can honestly say i have never really been out right cheated,,,I have stood my ground or made individuals show me there coon, if i can't find it for them. I have made them show me a hole in a tree ,Not a dark spot that looks like it might be a hole. I have pretty good ears and i like when the last 10 mins of the hunt and that pro is down a point or 2 and hears ol spot off in the distance.But i want to know which way and how far....LOL catch my drift... To me its all about the dogs
I give my trophy's back to our club and am glad to sponsor another coon club with my $20 entry and 50/50 raffle and hopefully some good cooking. and also if my dog is not performing for whatever reason i put her in the truck and lock her up and return to the cast... That saves alot of this B.S. of everyone saying when i left they only had 25 points. Make them earn the win boys or help that dog out that the other 2 guys are USING THE RULES AGAINST TO BEAT HIM... Hope it makes a little sense. Curt

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe UKC is a sponsor of the gentleman's TV show who started this thread. I believe he has integrity but he certainly has a vested interest to put a positive spin on his messages. I don't want to be too negative, there are lots of honest people that attend the hunts but there are some cheats that want to drag you down to their level. Not all Champions are worthy of the title. Anyone that denies that there is some cheating that goes on may be looking through rose colored glasses (or has a monetary interest to say nice things). Just my opinion.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Lakeland Kennel
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe UKC is a sponsor of the gentleman's TV show who started this thread. I believe he has integrity but he certainly has a vested interest to put a positive spin on his messages. I don't want to be too negative, there are lots of honest people that attend the hunts but there are some cheats that want to drag you down to their level. Not all Champions are worthy of the title. Anyone that denies that there is some cheating that goes on may be looking through rose colored glasses (or has a monetary interest to say nice things). Just my opinion.

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Oh come on Lakeland.... REALLY??????

I'll let the post starter stand up for himself in this, but for goodness sake...I'm a part of that very same TV show....and first and foremost, before TV Producer/director/editor/chief bottle washer...I AM A COONHUNTER. I've been hunting for 40 years and have been participating in competition hunts for well over 25 of those. I've competed in every registry that I know of, and some that don't exist any more. I've competed with coon hounds and beagles.... never owned a squirrel dog, so can't count myself in those ranks (yet! )

I've competed at the local, regional, and national level...and I can say that there were times when I went home feeling "cheated".... I can think of a time or two when there was outright "cheating" on the cast I was on...I brought it to the attention of the proper people, and it was dealt with. So I would say that there most certainly is some "cheating" that takes place. Unfortunatly, the competative nature of we humans seems to replace common sense and "honor" whenever we gather to compete....NASCAR, all manner of PRO BALL (steroid use is a form of cheating), you name it....it happens. Bottom line, there is a bad apple in every few bushel of apples....but it doesn't spoil the whole crop!

Mr Lakeland, I'm gonna ask you what YOU have done to stop, deter, or prevent the spread of the cheating that you say is so blatant? Do you have proof of your accusation, or is it just rumor? Have you picked up the phone and had a conversation with the sanctioning bodies of the clubs (the registries that sanction the hunts) about your concerns? Have you attended the club meetings, or walked along on a cast as a "spectator"?

Have you or anyone else who wants to come on here and cry foul done anything about the "cheating" that you claim is so blatant and so prevelant?

See, that is the problem....just as Dave mentioned. Many folks really don't understand the rules well enough to know if they were cheated or not. They think they know the rules, but when it is applied correctly, because they don't understand the proper application, the story they told is "they got cheated"... Case in point: A year or so ago I was on a cast that was treeing a LOT of coon. It got down to a two dog cast for the last half hour or so. My dog was getting beat by 25 points with about 15 minutes to go. The dog that was winning the cast opened 20 times or more and was not struck. When the handler struck the dog, he was minused (according to the rule for not striking on or before the third bark)... He lost the cast because of his mistake, but he will stand on any soap box available and swear to anyone that was listening that "HE GOT CHEATED".... I promise he did not get cheated...he lost because of handler error...and either won't admit it, or can't understand the rules system.

If you are on a cast and feel that your not getting a fair shot at the rules, a "buddy system" is a good example. You have every right to go back to the clubhouse and request a non-hunting judge. If you did not/have not done that....YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE OUTCOME....not anyone else.

If a cast vote does not go your way...you are not getting cheated. You have the right to question the call, go the MOH and explain the rule that you think is being violated. IF the MOH does not rule in your favor...You have another right to appeal....the formal complaint process.

If you have not taken advantage of the protection provided to you against the MINORITY of participants in this sport that cheat....I guess you don't have the right to complain about cheating.

Now, I'm going to make some of you mad. I see a trend from some folks that make a habit of paying entry fees. They got a bad break, bad deal, or maybe they got outright "cheated" once a long time ago. They put up all of the defenses available in every cast and show up with a chip on their shoulder when they enter. They come looking for a fight. Grandad told me I would only find a fight when and where I went looking for it. I have a word for those that are always looking for a fight.... "troublemaker"

The bottom line is that before we go calling each other cheaters and airing our dirty laundry for everyone to read....follow the process, report the cheaters. Join the clubs and take a stand on cheating. I'm curious as to how many folks that swear that cheating is the norm, are actually club members that attend the club meetings. I'm curious about how many of you have ever made a motion to refuse someone's entry from your local club because they are "troublemakers" or are constantly a source of conflict in a cast? Competition hunting is not a socialist sport...the government or some organization is not going to come and "fix it" for us and make it all better. It's up to each and every one of us to take control of the sport we love, to police ourselves, and to ensure that first timers and old timers alike enjoy the sport and are afforded the opportunity to compete on a level playing field.

First and foremost.... DON'T FORGET TO BRING A COONDOG!

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I will tell you the difference from competition coon hunts opposed to any other kind of competition.

Coon hunts=judges playing the game. Name me one other sport that has judges play the game?

I have always said for every person that gets barred that's money the UKC is loosing.

David, I respect and understand lack of knowledge is common in these hunts but just because so and so doesn't know the rules to the fullest gives ME NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to take advantage of him.

Others like yourself hate to hear anything negative about coon hunting and I wish there wasn't anything negative to say but i'm not that nieve. You have to get rid of most the bad before you can get to the good.

I could tell you a little story that happened 7 months ago that cost me a Nite Ch win on my english dog in 3 casts but it's long and drawn out. It was screwed from the picking of the judge to the way it was handled to the way the MOH ruled the final call. I knew probably 10 times as much as the three in my cast as well as the MOH. I stated several different rules that applied to the situation stating what they did was wrong BUT with me being younger then them who wanted to listen?

Old dogs can still learn new tricks, some just are to stuborn to.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Everyone that has posted from personal experience is obviously right in some way ...

.. going with the flow on a cast is what I have seen the most of , and a little outright cheating ... mostly it goes about like I'd expect things to go with coonhunters competing ..


I don't have a problem with any of that ... what I do take issue with ... is the consensus that it's up to the "new" guys or the minority who want to be honest to police and reform that nite hunts ...

... I don't agree with rape , but that doesn't mean I have to go out and become a cop for my opinion to be valid.

... the Clubs and UKC are the ones that run the hunts ... if they think it's not their job to run good hunts ... they are wrong ..

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith


... I don't agree with rape , but that doesn't mean I have to go out and become a cop for my opinion to be valid.

... the Clubs and UKC are the ones that run the hunts ... if they think it's not their job to run good hunts ... they are wrong ..

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
I will tell you the difference from competition coon hunts opposed to any other kind of competition.

Coon hunts=judges playing the game. Name me one other sport that has judges play the game?

I have always said for every person that gets barred that's money the UKC is loosing.

David, I respect and understand lack of knowledge is common in these hunts but just because so and so doesn't know the rules to the fullest gives ME NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to take advantage of him.

Others like yourself hate to hear anything negative about coon hunting and I wish there wasn't anything negative to say but i'm not that nieve. You have to get rid of most the bad before you can get to the good.

I could tell you a little story that happened 7 months ago that cost me a Nite Ch win on my english dog in 3 casts but it's long and drawn out. It was screwed from the picking of the judge to the way it was handled to the way the MOH ruled the final call. I knew probably 10 times as much as the three in my cast as well as the MOH. I stated several different rules that applied to the situation stating what they did was wrong BUT with me being younger then them who wanted to listen?

Old dogs can still learn new tricks, some just are to stuborn to.

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I did not file a formal complaint. I was so mad at the fact that they were clueless about what was going on, that MOH has no business near a hunt and that's a fact.

If I would have filed a formal I would have won, the point is it should have been no where near that point.

If that MOH was that stupid to not understand basic rules then why in the world was I going to risk putting 25$ up.

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Treberta
That would have been a great time to express to ukc through a formal complaint that the people in charge need to be looked at and evaluated. That might help the next guy who is in that situation.

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Registered: Oct 2009
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Seems to me alot and I mean alot of people are turned away from these hunts due to them feling like they need to be lawyers or something.

You can read the rules all day and be clueless as to how to apply them in the woods. Knowledge comes from experience, if you feel proud screwing Billy because he hasn't had much experience then more power to you.

It's the responsibillity of "we" the know it alls (LOL) job to explain situations that come up to these individuals.

Now, the one's that think they know all are the one's that I have no problem explaining anything too. They are to stuborn to believe it anyways.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta

You can read the rules all day and be clueless as to how to apply them in the woods. Knowledge comes from experience, if you feel proud screwing Billy because he hasn't had much experience then more power to you.

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Last edited by Oak Ridge on 04-14-2010 at 04:06 PM

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That's where me and you have different oppinions.

I don't know you aside from youre views and oppinions that you put on here but I, myself, wouldn't feel to proud winning based on another handlers lack of experience. It can be viwed youre way or my way, however you choose.

Now, if it was a veteran handler no rules to be explained, as they should know them well. All i'm saying is to help explain the rules to these that are in-experienced, I know I would have had alot more cast wins if people hunting would have explained them to me.

There is far to much emphasis on handling. I, myself am a good handler, (or so I think) but when I show up to a hunt I am 100% depending on my dogs work to get me a win, NOT MY CREATED WORK.

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I have seen a lot of hide hunters come to a hunt and they don't understand the rules, like why you can't talk to your dog or why they have to stay on the tree. Then they leave upset feeling like they got screwed. There is a reason why each rule is in place but if you haven't been in a few hunts it doesn't make sense. I think a lot of these guys get mad and assume that all comp hunters are cheaters.

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Registered: Oct 2009
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I don't digagree one bit Justen.

I'm not talking about pleasure hunters as I consider myself one. I'm talking baout people that are intrested in competition hunts and want to learn the tricks of the trade. We all started out sometime, not knowing much at all.

Help them when you can, explain situations to them when they come up. If they screw up tell them what they should have done in that situation. All most care about is that cast win and they don't care who they walk over to get it.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
That's where me and you have different oppinions.

I don't know you aside from youre views and oppinions that you put on here but I, myself, wouldn't feel to proud winning based on another handlers lack of experience. It can be viwed youre way or my way, however you choose.

Now, if it was a veteran handler no rules to be explained, as they should know them well. All i'm saying is to help explain the rules to these that are in-experienced, I know I would have had alot more cast wins if people hunting would have explained them to me.

There is far to much emphasis on handling. I, myself am a good handler, (or so I think) but when I show up to a hunt I am 100% depending on my dogs work to get me a win, NOT MY CREATED WORK.

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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa
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I got mad more at myself for allowing myself to believe that the comp. hunts were something that they ended up not being. I had assumed that the rules were made to allow the best dog to win. I was ultimately surprised to eventually realize that it wasn't a hunt to determine the best dog but the best dog/handler who played the game the best. Sure I went in with preconceived notions but also an open mind. Sitting in the club house prior to drawing out and listening to others talk of how they were cheated, how so and so pulled his "usual" last weekend, etc. etc. started to make me look at it differently. I still did it for the fun and still do it for the fun, with an off chance of winning here or there, but listening to all the crap, perceived or otherwise, that goes on is a downer for sure. I am accussed of causing the perception that "we are all liars and cheaters" usually by those those who claim to have just barely seen a smidgeon of what could be defined as cheating but only by a dictionary. The truth of the matter is that it is somewhere in the middle. You are a fool if you think everyone is a liar or cheater and you are a fool if you think it only just barely goes on by 6% of the people. It just depends on what kind of mood you are in on the day of the hunt and how much crap you feel like potentially dealing with and/or what state of mind you'll risk on the chance of having some fun. When they turn out fun, they usually are a blast and over way to soon. But when they suck.......man do they ever.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: nc
Posts: 425

Nothing can be done if and thats if youve been cheated dont go back,or in my case you get ban from the club it happened at because you speak up.I dont know the rules like some these fellows but if i got to cheat to title a hound I dont want the hound.And if i got to pay a man to cheat for me i will sell out.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by CSnowgren
I got mad more at myself for allowing myself to believe that the comp. hunts were something that they ended up not being. I had assumed that the rules were made to allow the best dog to win. I was ultimately surprised to eventually realize that it wasn't a hunt to determine the best dog but the best dog/handler who played the game the best. Sure I went in with preconceived notions but also an open mind. Sitting in the club house prior to drawing out and listening to others talk of how they were cheated, how so and so pulled his "usual" last weekend, etc. etc. started to make me look at it differently. I still did it for the fun and still do it for the fun, with an off chance of winning here or there, but listening to all the crap, perceived or otherwise, that goes on is a downer for sure. I am accussed of causing the perception that "we are all liars and cheaters" usually by those those who claim to have just barely seen a smidgeon of what could be defined as cheating but only by a dictionary. The truth of the matter is that it is somewhere in the middle. You are a fool if you think everyone is a liar or cheater and you are a fool if you think it only just barely goes on by 6% of the people. It just depends on what kind of mood you are in on the day of the hunt and how much crap you feel like potentially dealing with and/or what state of mind you'll risk on the chance of having some fun. When they turn out fun, they usually are a blast and over way to soon. But when they suck.......man do they ever.

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: chesterfield va.
Posts: 549

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
As an "experienced" competition hunter, I object to the fact that a rule that applies to me may not apply to a newcomer. There is no "rookie league" or playground league where we have "do overs"....Like I said earlier, inexperience does not come with a "get out of jail free" card.

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If you view me as "dumb" for wanting to help those in-experienced handlers out then that's fine with me. I'm out there to see the best dog win and I will do everything possible to make sure it does.

Helping someone who doesn't know (or as you would call it a get-out-of-jail free-card) is the way it should be done. Don't excuse ignorance BUT help and teach those that that have little to no experience.

We all were def, dumb, and blind at one point. There's alot of people around here getting into this sport and if I need to take advantage of there inexperience then shame on me.

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: chesterfield va.
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quote:

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Originally posted by CSnowgren
I got mad more at myself for allowing myself to believe that the comp. hunts were something that they ended up not being. I had assumed that the rules were made to allow the best dog to win. I was ultimately surprised to eventually realize that it wasn't a hunt to determine the best dog but the best dog/handler who played the game the best. Sure I went in with preconceived notions but also an open mind. Sitting in the club house prior to drawing out and listening to others talk of how they were cheated, how so and so pulled his "usual" last weekend, etc. etc. started to make me look at it differently. I still did it for the fun and still do it for the fun, with an off chance of winning here or there, but listening to all the crap, perceived or otherwise, that goes on is a downer for sure. I am accussed of causing the perception that "we are all liars and cheaters" usually by those those who claim to have just barely seen a smidgeon of what could be defined as cheating but only by a dictionary. The truth of the matter is that it is somewhere in the middle. You are a fool if you think everyone is a liar or cheater and you are a fool if you think it only just barely goes on by 6% of the people. It just depends on what kind of mood you are in on the day of the hunt and how much crap you feel like potentially dealing with and/or what state of mind you'll risk on the chance of having some fun. When they turn out fun, they usually are a blast and over way to soon. But when they suck.......man do they ever.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

You guys all missed the point!!!

Once again, I never claimed that there weren't any cheaters or cheating going on. I simply stated...

"Here's what I'm wondering... how many of these stories really have something to do with wrong-doing??? How many of them are not really someone being cheated, but rather a case of someone not knowing the rules, someone not knowing their dog, or simply an excuse for why Lucky didn't win last weekend."

My point was that many folks use "being cheated" as a crutch for handler or dog error, or simply assumed that must be the case otherwise nobody could possibly have beat Ole Blue!

My point was twofold. First, search your soul and ensure you were really cheated before you go telling the world that was the case, otherwise people and/or the sport could be hurt in the process. Two, unless it acheives a positive end (other than making yourself feel better) why go spreading all this negaitve publicity on our sport, on a public forum. Check out the "Hound Hunter's Take Notice" post and you will see that folks like The Humane Society and other anti-hunters read these forums. Do we really need to fuel their fire by telling them that we're all cheaters and liars not to be trusted???

What positive purpose did all of this talk have? Did you educate some youth that reads this post, that cheating does exist and they should be aware, or did you simply scare them off?!?

Lakeland - Yes, it is true that the production I'm involved in, is sponsored by UKC, but I am personally not sponsored by anyone! I wrote this post, for the same reason I launched the production... to promote and protect our sport and educate the general public. If you notice I never mentioned if I was talking about UKC, NKC, PKC, or AKC competition events. I simply picked UKC's forum because I thought this was the place I would get the most productive discussion on. I guess I was wrong.

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I understand EXACTLY what youre point was. I agree with you to an extent BUT you also just want to kick all the bad stuff to the curb and pretend it doesn't happen. I, on the other hand take a different approach. Screw me, be prepared to hear about it.

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