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is crossbreeding wrong You do not have permission to vote on this poll.
yes	242	36.72%
no	417	63.28%
Total:	659 votes	100%

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wkfii
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

I have posted this before in other threads

but I wanted to do this as an illustration

Bluecap, with flag tail and feathers, circa 1759. It's a shame that they cut his ears short because I would like to see how houndy they were.

Last edited by wkfii on 10-18-2004 at 10:48 PM

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10-15-2004 10:19 PM

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coldtrail
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dixie
Posts: 1490

Is that a picture of Little Bam? I thought he would be ticked up a little more.

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10-16-2004 12:06 AM

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fish hook 1
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Registered: Jul 2004
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Posts: 8

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW TENNESSEE HARD ROCK ONE OF THE MOST CONSISTANT BLACK AND TAN'S GOING TODAY IS A CROSS BETWEEN A WALKER AND A BLACK AND TAN. HE HAS WON THOUSANDS OF $ IN PKC, AND FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD HE IS ALSO ONE OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT DOGS TO EVER LIVE.

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10-16-2004 04:01 AM

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smith06
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: St. Marys, ohio
Posts: 94

i hunted with a walker redbone cross once. it was one of the best dogs ive ever seen hunt

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10-18-2004 09:05 PM

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wkfii
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:
Originally posted by SmilinCoyote
wkfii I didnt know that about bulls and grayhounds. But it all makes since when you look at each breed seperate and then look at hounds. I am new to hounds and dont know nuttin. But I got a good idea what works. I enjoy my hound. I dont hunt him, he is a lil over a year old. Dont know anyone who hunts so I have to learn from yall online here.

What I think that I was saying is that there has to be a balanced approach to cross breeding and that the UKC has attempted to strike a balance. There are crosses to other coonhounds, there are crosses to other hounds, and then there are crosses to other dogs. In the last 75 years or since UKC began registering the coonhound breeds, it has all been done, and we all know it has been done. Some of the hounds of this breeding were single registered, and some had false papers put on them. Some of the crosses turned out, some didn't.

I have been told that one line of Treeing Walkers had a German Shepard crossed into it. One famous Walker's mother had a head that could only have belonged to a collie of some type. LOL It goes on and on.

The crossing within the so called breeds of coonhound has probably been extensive. It is a fact that Indiana Boone Boy was born of two Vaughn bred Blueticks. He came out looking like a foxhound and was registered a Walker. There was a Bluetick called Forrester's Sue that was single registered as a Walker and was bred into the Finley River line of Walkers. I know of more instances as well wherein false papers were put on the hounds. For instance, Walkers were crossed with Blueticks. The looks of the pups determined how they were registered.

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10-18-2004 11:06 PM

Richard Nethery
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3970

One Comment,

I own a Very Nice Grade Walker, He will remain a Grade dog unless I Single Register him,

He Looks like a Treeing Walker, He is a Good Coondog, I have no Clue who His Sire and Dam are, I just wonder how many of the Pr , or Supposed Pr hounds, are really hounds like mine that some thief, has "Papered up"

I bet it would be very Suprising.

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Last edited by Richard Nethery on 10-19-2004 at 02:56 AM

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10-19-2004 02:51 AM

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Driveshaft
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2962

SINGLE REG HOUNDS

WERE INTRODUCED TO EVERY BREED AT SOME TIME OR ANOTHER, JUST LOOK BACK IN THERE PEDIGREES.

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10-19-2004 02:58 AM

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Richard Nethery
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3970

DriveShaft,

What I mean by Papered Up, is not Honestly Single Registered, but If someone took a Hound like the one I described, Put a Fake set of papers on him, from say a Registered Cull, or Dead dog, then Sold him for $1000

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10-19-2004 03:05 AM

J.J Melin
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Monticello Indiana
Posts: 1327

most people thin crossbreeding o that is a outcross or coonhound but u people do u think coonhound cross is ok????i think is ok if u get what u want to it is a mistake

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10-19-2004 03:39 AM

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mike fleming
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Abbeville S.C.
Posts: 979

Tennessee Hardrock $40,000 in winnings not bad for a MUTT is it.

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10-19-2004 03:43 AM

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J.J Melin
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Monticello Indiana
Posts: 1327

wish that mutt would end up in the pound lol

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10-19-2004 03:48 AM

Timber Hill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 562

Habits Little Girl and Habits Flying Mann hunted in the PKC super stakes this week and I think Flying Mann made the finals.I also think they are Walker and Bluetick cross.Does anyone know for sure.
Jim Wigley

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10-19-2004 01:39 PM

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wkfii
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:
Originally posted by J.J Melin
most people thin crossbreeding o that is a outcross or coonhound but u people do u think coonhound cross is ok????i think is ok if u get what u want to it is a mistake

Speaking for myself, I think that each breed association under the UKC has different ways of dealing with single registration and by inclusion, cross breeding. Probably, the English Association is the most open in regard to single registration. I think there are different rules for each association. But I think that the end result is that there is a balancing of the need to maintain a registry and the need to sometimes bring in some new blood. I have been told that many Running Walkers are being single registered as Treeing Walkers in an attempt to reintroduce more tracking ability.

I would think that within the Treeing Walkers, because of the numbers and diversity and the gene pool to start out with, one could probably outcross different blood or lines and in effect have a cross.

I think a wide open system, such as the PKC, is probably a little too much. Of course, if a cross is successful, then maybe these dogs should be single registered in the UKC?

I really don't know all of the answers on this issue, I just know that throughout time, not one breed of hound has been bred exclusively within it's gene pool so to speak. For example, I know that St. Huberts were crossed into the French Gascons. That is the reason for the little tan dots above many Gascon and Bluetick eyes.

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10-19-2004 04:12 PM

Bruce Conkey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

A crossbred dog named Flyin Mann won $10,000 last ningt.
Couple that with what Hardrock won earlier this year and the MUTTS ain't doing bad. Congratulations to those that can think outside the box.
http://forum.prohound.com/viewtopic.php?t=21681

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10-19-2004 06:06 PM

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honalieh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2162

Cross-Breeding

When you actually put them in the woods, the papers don't help anymore. There's a difference between pure-bred and pure-papered. I'd rather breed/hunt performers than market papers.

If you'd spend your time in the woods, and not on the computer, you'd see that performance counts most (yes, I did hunt tonight--- English, with Bluetick and Walker blood---no boo-hooing or slick treeing).

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10-20-2004 05:53 AM

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Blister 1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1190

I have nothing against crossbreeds, but it is a scary thought of having every hound colored up the same. Different is a good thing, and we shouldn't ever overlook that.

I spose enough folks like a purbred, well as close as you can come.

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10-20-2004 06:29 AM

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John D
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Let me see if I got this right. A crossbreed can be registered as a purebred and referred to as a mutt. A purebred can be registered as a crossbreed. Its all done in the name of honesty and keeping papers correct, etc., etc., etc.

Meanwhile the money is changing hands, which proves its a good idea.

I mutt be the only one to be amused by this.

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10-20-2004 02:56 PM

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wkfii
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:
Originally posted by John D
Let me see if I got this right. A crossbreed can be registered as a purebred and referred to as a mutt. A purebred can be registered as a crossbreed. Its all done in the name of honesty and keeping papers correct, etc., etc., etc.

Meanwhile the money is changing hands, which proves its a good idea.

I mutt be the only one to be amused by this.

Prior to the registration of coonhounds, there was quite of bit of agitation within the coonhound community to create a registry for these hounds. I would think that it helps with marketing the pups as well as the sport. It gives the perception of legitimacy. In many cases that perception might in fact be the case if we honestly put in the papers crosses between the so called breeds and keep the balance between having a registry and excellance in the field.

I can't help but recall what the English did to the Foxhound in the early 1900's. They were breeding these hounds with heavily muscled forelimbs (crossed in bull dogs) because they looked good. **** things could not track with speed and they had no endurance to speak of. That is clearly an example of a cross (never admitted to, but self evident) that should have never been made. They then bred these animals and thereby polluted the entire gene pool for the Foxhound. To think that it was done because of looks. That is the reason why I have a bias against using coonhounds as show dogs.

EXCELLANCE IN TRACKING AND TREEING should be the creed.

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10-21-2004 11:50 PM

warrior
Banned

Registered: May 2004
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2109

I think UKC is missing something on this

UKC should take a page from PKC and add a crossbred or grade registry. The results of these crosses could never hope to aquire the "coveted" 'PR' title. But it would provide breeders with a desire to experiment documentation and a forum to test the experiments. To say nothing of the fees for this service. I do not believe that these crosses would ever threaten the pure blood of the breeds as there is a certain pride in owning a pure blood. Should the crossbred blood be a success maybe there might be a way to bring them back into the breeds by means of single registry after a certain number of generations. Some of the cattle orginizations allow this. As an example take Tennessee Hardrock, register him as a crossbred then cross him to a walker the pups would still be crossbred (3/4 walker 1/4 B&T) pups crossed to walker (7/8 walker 1/8 B&T) this generation could be single registered. I know this is a simple example and those crosses using some or all of our breeds could get confusing but it would allow some of our breeds to "borrow" the genetic material in other breeds. Of course if you do not want this in your kennel then don't breed to it. I would like to see these crosses restricted to just recognized treedog breeds (curs allowed). Just imagine a HardrockXRat Attack pup. As it is the curs are already free to do this and I believe in the coming years we are going to see some curs that will beat any coonhound anywhere and anytime.

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11-19-2004 09:22 PM

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Tracey Fincher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Saluda S.C.
Posts: 186

At one time or another a breeder has put papers on good dog. These people were stuck on there on line of dogs. But back then there was no DNA testing. Thank technology for DNA testing today. Some people don�t want to admit to this. I don�t see anything wrong with cross breeding. Every breed needs something extra. Just register it as crossbreed. What is big deal? Its what ever you want to hunt. You shouldn�t be criticized for what you want hunt or what kind of truck or car you drive. UKC should recognize crossbreed hounds in my opinion. But we all are set in our own lonely ways.

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11-19-2004 09:41 PM

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Dale Young
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

maybe I missed it

If cross breeds are excepted would there then be 7 breeds of coonhound or would they just fit into the other six by color. I quess by color is single registering as we have it now.

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11-19-2004 10:32 PM

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Richard Nethery
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3970

Dale Young,

Are you the owner of HardRock, if so Congratulations, he sure is one heck of a Fine hound, I started following your Progress way before your big win.

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11-19-2004 10:53 PM

Dale Young
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

Richard

Wrong guy. I live in Michigan and play with redbones and occasionally one of the others when I run into a nice one.

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11-20-2004 01:28 AM

walkerdog101
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 252

Take it as it's worth. I just bought a very high dollar dog, he is out of a grand nite champion directly out of Ball's stylish harry, and on the bottom he is out of a nite champion gyp directly out of Swamprooster. He is bar none, the best dog I have ever seen go, he hasn't slicked one time since I bought him, runs a track harder than most dogs, and is a extreme pressure tree dog. He won 2 casts in a row at the PKC world, and lost his third on a tie breaker. He looks just like any other Red English out there today. He has a full pedigree from pkc as well as UKC!!! He is a nite champion with 3 wins toward grand in about 10 hunts in ukc, other than that has only been in pkc. Cross bred hounds are going to be used here in the near future to start to get some of the slick treeing out of the walker's. I have always been a walker man myself, but times change I guess. I'm not color blind, I will hunt any color dog, as long as it is a COONDOG!!!! and maybe everyone should not be cross bred blind.

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11-23-2004 04:04 PM

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Allen K
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Nu Acres, Idaho
Posts: 99

I have 7 dogs outside and all but 1 is crossbred. Most are 3/4 walker, 1/4 bluetick...... the only registered dog I have is walker and hes got more ticks on him then my crossbreds so go figure...........I'll always hunt crossbreds etc, whatever gets the job done in style.

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11-23-2004 04:11 PM