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Yeah, guess I was wrong all the way around on this one.
Never answer a rule question before coffee.

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Common sense would say plus strike and tree on all dogs. Call time out, dogs B,C,D have an hour to be handled. We are out there to run and tree coons which is what these dogs did, why take it away from them with technical statements to the rules.

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headed to the bass pro shop to get me a timothy ball
coon squaller.how many did you tree last night 8 but
we only seen 1 coon.the kids should have a blast.

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I think your using rule 3b here. Rule 4c applies to trees only.The defintion by ukc gives "trees" and "places of refuge" 2 seperate defintions.

Place Of Refuge
This refers to places where raccoons go to elude the dogs other than in a tree. Holes in the ground, stump piles, old barns, junk cars or farm machinery would all be considered places of refuge for a coon.

3 b) When dog is declared struck and treed and coon is seen other than in tree, dog declared treed to receive strike and tree points. Dogs not declared treed, strike points only. If dog catches coon, strike points only

4c) When dog has been declared treed and dogleaves tree. (If he goes on the trail just his tree pointswill be minus). If dog returns to tree within the five minutes he will receive the next available position on tree, unless all dogs have been declared treed.

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im gonna take a guess at this one and say dog A is plus both ways b,c and d are plus strike and minus tree.


if your gonna go by good judgment, common sense i say plus em all then recast dog A with other dogs then split strike points.

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Well going by what Allen has said thus far I'd say A is going to be circled and the rest will be minused on tree.

What if the coon comes out of the hole and is caught by the other dogs right at the hole? Lets say its 20 feet from the hole before the other dogs catch it? How far before the un-handled dogs are considered to have left the tree?

IMO if you are at the hole and see all of this...... common sense should trump the technicality of the rules. The dogs did what they were supposed to do and had the coon. You can't expect a handler to have his dog handled the second you say handle your dog. I know you chalk it up to a bad break but it seems like the rules leave quite a few ways to catch a bad break when it is known the dog did right. When you see and know exactly what happened I would think you would have to take that into account.

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I would probably cosider the coon caught, If the dogs were able to make contact.

Plus the strikes, turn A back in and hope that sucker goes up a tree this time...

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Another prime example of when the intent of the rules conflicts with the letter of the rules.



And they wonder why 9 out of 10 people who try a night hunt never go to more than a handfull.


It aint worth the headaches.

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At Autumn Oaks this past year:

Purina Cast. Non-hunting judge.

Dogs are all struck off of leash 1st drop. Dogs C and D are treed not far from the cast (30 yards).

Dogs A and B come out of woods fighting a coon.

Judge orders dogs A and B handled and strikes are plussed on those dogs.

Judge is standing on the coon with his foot. (Dogs C and D are still on tree)

Judge proceeds to kick (yes, punt) the coon into the woods.

Dogs C and D leave tree and come back to where the judge had the coon. They are minused on tree.

Dogs continue to go back and forth from tree to cast.

Judge called timeout after dogs C and D took about 300- and dogs A and B were being handled.

Was this scored correctly?

I thought timeout should have been called as soon as the coon was sent back into the woods, but it wasn't...

This is a tricky situation in that so much was going on so fast...

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Once a dog is treed it needs to be scored.

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I guess the point I was trying to make in my previous post was that in some uncommon situations the rules are not built to fairly and accurately score what the dogs are doing.

In this situation we have all the facts in hand because everyone clearly saw what happened. If you didn't see what happened the rules clearly tell you what to do if the dogs move after being treed. That's all you would know that they did by just hearing them. This situation has a known added element..... the coon the dogs are treeing taking off right in front of them. I seriously doubt any dog worth his salt would not chase a coon running right in front of his face out of a hole. Punishing a dog for that seems contrary to what a hunt is supposed to be about.

Are there any situations where good judgement trumps situations clearly scored inaccurately by the rules?

Let's say all dogs were handled but shine time hadn't started and all the cast members see the coon bolt from the hole? Is UKC's ruling that we are not to score the coon the dogs clearly treed but just score the hole.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by masterd1976
Once a dog is treed it needs to be scored.

---

Yep,it aint our fault people hunt weak tree dogs is it!!!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by 1deadeye
Dog A does not have to be recast. New rule. Up to handler if they want to recast or not.
Scott

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Forget about the shine time, there is no shine time started when scoring dogs in the ground. The judge ordered all dogs handled so all dogs must be handled. And you can't minus for leaving because that rule does not apply to holes, only one dog has to show the hole.
Plus all dogs both ways, call time out, gather dogs B,C,D.

---

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I am gonna take a stab at this.....
Because dogs B,C,and D did not get handled even though they were seen at the hole .They get minused on tree points.The rule on only one dog needing to show the hole ONLY pertains to IF they were called holed.In this case they were treed so they must all stay treed until handled.
The fact that the coon was seen is irrelevent.A coon can only be scored DURING the 10 minutes shining time.Let us say all dogs are treed.On the way into the tree dogs are all there and the coon bails.All cast members see it.Too bad for you .Can't score it.
My answer would be give Dog A 10 minutes to check the hole and hope to heck it goes deep enough or there is another coon down there.Score it either minus or circle on both strike and tree as needed.
Let handler of dog A recast or stay on the leash as per the new rules on recasting and whether or not the other three dogs are all retreed.
Dogs can be retreed and scored on the coon.The same coon can be rescored on but not the same tree.

At the point of dog's B,C,D, leaving the hole :
Dog A Circled or minused on both strike and tree.Gets turned back in per handlers option for 25 strike points.
Dog's B,C,D all get minused on tree .Strike points are still held.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Pat Bizich
I am gonna take a stab at this.....
Because dogs B,C,and D did not get handled even though they were seen at the hole .They get minused on tree points.The rule on only one dog needing to show the hole ONLY pertains to IF they were called holed.In this case they were treed so they must all stay treed until handled.
The fact that the coon was seen is irrelevent.A coon can only be scored DURING the 10 minutes shining time.Let us say all dogs are treed.On the way into the tree dogs are all there and the coon bails.All cast members see it.Too bad for you .Can't score it.
My answer would be give Dog A 10 minutes to check the hole and hope to heck it goes deep enough or there is another coon down there.Score it either minus or circle on both strike and tree as needed.
Let handler of dog A recast or stay on the leash as per the new rules on recasting and whether or not the other three dogs are all retreed.
Dogs can be retreed and scored on the coon.The same coon can be rescored on but not the same tree.

At the point of dog's B,C,D, leaving the hole :
Dog A Circled or minused on both strike and tree.Gets turned back in per handlers option for 25 strike points.
Dog's B,C,D all get minused on tree .Strike points are still held.

---

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Well, yes, that is what I mean.If any of the other dogs are still running and at his option to keep Dog A on the lead or cut loose.Didn't mean to confuse.Thought I stated it that way.
Let handler of dog A recast or stay on the leash as per the new rules on recasting and whether or not the other three dogs are all retreed.

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Last edited by Pat Bizich on 03-28-2009 at 01:52 AM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Pat Bizich
I am gonna take a stab at this.....
Because dogs B,C,and D did not get handled even though they were seen at the hole .They get minused on tree points.The rule on only one dog needing to show the hole ONLY pertains to IF they were called holed.In this case they were treed so they must all stay treed until handled.
The fact that the coon was seen is irrelevent.A coon can only be scored DURING the 10 minutes shining time.Let us say all dogs are treed.On the way into the tree dogs are all there and the coon bails.All cast members see it.Too bad for you .Can't score it.
My answer would be give Dog A 10 minutes to check the hole and hope to heck it goes deep enough or there is another coon down there.Score it either minus or circle on both strike and tree as needed.
Let handler of dog A recast or stay on the leash as per the new rules on recasting and whether or not the other three dogs are all retreed.
Dogs can be retreed and scored on the coon.The same coon can be rescored on but not the same tree.

At the point of dog's B,C,D, leaving the hole :
Dog A Circled or minused on both strike and tree.Gets turned back in per handlers option for 25 strike points.
Dog's B,C,D all get minused on tree .Strike points are still held.

---

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Last edited by treemydog32 on 03-28-2009 at 03:19 AM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by blueticking: it
come on guys you know you cant score the same coon twiced.
+ all dogs strike and tree call time out,1hr to catch.

---

Last edited by honalieh on 03-28-2009 at 03:40 AM

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but I agree with Jim.

When was the last time you were on a hunt & the dogs either caught a coon on the ground or treed in a hole in the ground/rocks & the Judge said that he was starting the shine time. I've been attending hunts since 1948 & I've never heard a Judge start the shine time in these two situations. So for those of you that say you can only get plus points is during shine time are wrong.

Allen, when a Judge tells everyone to handle their dogs, he is in essence saying that all dogs are treeing satisfactory. If a dog wasn't treeing satisfactory he should have declared it at that time, in which this was not declared in the above situation.

There is no Rule that I know of that covers this situation exactly, but Rule 3b comes the closest.

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FACT: All 4 dogs did what is expected of a coondog.

What kind of a sorry dog would stay barking at a hole after he/she watched a coon come out of it????? My point is if these dogs were to be minused, then UKC's rules aren't sufficient at judging a real coondog. In a rare situation like this, where all cast member's saw the coon, an exception should be added to the rules. Plus em' all. Time out. Get your dogs.

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Guys, Alan has officially ruled on it, there's no more "stabs".

Rule 3c plainly says if they are called treed at the hole they have to stay because it says if they are called treed you have to apply rule 4c.

So dogs that left chasing the coon are minused.

The rules say that 10 minutes may be demanded to search the tree OR PLACE OF REFUGE, so the shine time has to be started in order to score any tree or place of refuge.

The only question I had was the one brought up here before, since the judge said handle your dogs and deemed them to be at the tree what happened if they left before being handled. I know Todd or Tank, somebody in the 90's wrote an advisor covering that exact thing, but couldn't remember for sure what it said. (I thought they were minused but wouldn't comment until Alan said something for fear of causing confusion.) Alan has said that is the way it's ruled.

So, the answer has been posted multiple times, and Alan has agreed. Dogs B,C,D minused tree. Score Dog A's hole accordingly, plus, minus, circle based on what is there after the shine time is started. Hope there is either another coon or the hole is deep enough to get circle LOL.

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4c only applies to trees.It does not pertain to places of refuge, or it would say tree or places of refuge. Trees and places of refuge were given seperate definition by UKC.

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Keith, read the rule regarding PLACES OF REFUGE.

That rule itself plainly says when dogs are declared treed USE RULE 4C.

Here it is, direct quote

5"(a) When dog strikes and trees up a tree or a hole in the ground where there could be a coon, yet Judge does not see coon and no off game is seen. (No tree climbing.) NOTE: In case of running coon in hole or place of refuge other than a tree, handler may call dog treed. However, if not called treed, cast may proceed to general area, and track can be considered finished if dogs, by actions either tree barking or otherwise, show to the satisfaction of the Judge, coon to be there. One dog must show end of trail. For dogs declared treed in hole or tile, see Rule 3(b)or 4(c), if applicable."

Now that rule is plain as plain can be, but, it doesn't matter if that rule exists or not because Alan has given the official UKC ruling, and as the advisor that's it, end of story.

You or I don't have to agree with it, but we do have to abide by it. There is one the other day that I know for a fact I am correct in how it would be ruled in court due to legal definitions and the hiearchy of rules etc but Alan said UKC's official ruling was different and supported by common sense, but NOT supported by written rules (as a matter of fact it condradicted the rules as written). Some say "well they have to show it in the rules".

Well, no they don't because the first rule is UKC's official Advisor interpretations ARE the rules. That's all that matters. During the changes of advisors over the years they have been pretty consistant with very little change so they don't just "change" things (with one exception who didn't stay the Advisor long LOL), but when they make a ruling, unless they change it, that's the way it is.

Kinda like daddy was, cause he said so LOL.

Nah, they ain't ever been like that (well except maybe that one) they have been really consistant and considerate, but bottom line is they are the final say on all things concerning the rules so their answer kinda ends debate.

Don't end my opinions though, just check and see how many times I've brought up that I think it's stupid to give dogs a minute to break the rules and babble LOL.

But it does mean that if we are following UKC rules we abide by them, whether we agree with them or not (which I do, but good thing for me none of them ever took differing opinions personally).

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Yeah I see what your saying. This only means that now my dog can be minused for chasing a coon and minused for being anywere near possum tracks.

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