Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Jacksonville FL
Posts: 4046

Mr. Sexton is an academic, i wonder sometimes if its more about the research project end of it then about the actual hounds.

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Location: Oklahoma
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Brogy , I feel ya' ... my first good coondog was a Walker .. he was running , treeing and trading blood with coon at 8-10 months old and had class.

Not many off colored breeds are as efficient and flashy ... alot of hub-bub just to tree a coon .

But , you can do it .. with alot of luck ,lol . If I had to start from scratch I'd be looking at Walkers or Walcurs .

Rance , RAndy has put in alot of legwork , money and miles on his project .. you aint got to agree with him to see that , you're shot was below the belt .

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Location: Jacksonville FL
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quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Brogy , I feel ya' ... my first good coondog was a Walker .. he was running , treeing and trading blood with coon at 8-10 months old and had class.

Not many off colored breeds are as efficient and flashy ... alot of hub-bub just to tree a coon .

But , you can do it .. with alot of luck ,lol . If I had to start from scratch I'd be looking at Walkers or Walcurs .

Rance , RAndy has put in alot of legwork , money and miles on his project .. you aint got to agree with him to see that , you're shot was below the belt .

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Mr. Smith, why do you have to defend randy all the time, couldnt he get on here and field some of our concerns. Rance's comment seemed inline with what everyone else is seeing and probably thinking.

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quote:

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Originally posted by brogy
No problem Jesse. I'll try to clarify. I know I don't make a lot of sense, when I made this post I was stuck in the house bored out of my mind, I still am.

1) "Off-breed", is basically anything other than a Walker. I used "---" because thats how I've heard the term used.
2) I hate a tri-colored dog. Boring as heck. Give me brindle, blue, polka dotted. I guess thats why I like the black & white Clover dogs, or even the Preacher colored dogs. Something a little different. I'm not saying that they're aren't good dogs in all breeds, I'm just saying with some... it can be a real challenge when you're limited to how many dogs you can feed and our location.
3) It just does and I'm going to refrain from commenting further for the sake of not offending so many. I'm just saying, there are plenty of young dogs I've messed with that had it been a Walker it would be a cull, but because they were something other than they were not. I think the expectations are a bit different among breeds. I know I'll catch heck for that.
Some of the better dogs among the other breeds around here, I wouldn't feed. That doesn't mean I don't think they are coondogs, it just means they wouldn't suit me.
4) I think others are considered "offbreeds" simply becaus the Walkers outnumber them in everything. I didn't make the term up, just how I've heard it used.
5) That should say something. Dogs are dogs. There are good ones in all breeds. Just because its a Walker doesn't make it better than something else. But if I were start from scratch and could only keep 1 dog at the house, and was only given 5 attempts to find a keeper, I think I could find a keeper faster by trying Walkers than some other breed.

Jesse, I made this post out of complete boredom. I've been intrigued by the WalCur crosses.
I drive around SE MN and see tons of nice hunting ground I wouldn't cut a hound in, but someone could tree some coons in there with closer hunting or better handling dog (not saying a hound wouldn't fit the bill either).
I can't figure out why we are breeding dogs that "go-yonder" or dogs that are known for leaving on junk and switching over. Maybe in the south were coons are scarce I can see but up here? How much hunting freedom will we have in 15 years when all our hounds are bred to go a mile before they begin hunting and are constantly getting treed in all the developments and private ground closed to hunting. I'm thinking some of these folks breeding the crossbreeds might be ahead of us in a few years.
I wouldn't trade the hounds I'm feeding for anything else I've seen in the hunts around here, I'm sure you feel the same.
This is just me daydreaming out loud.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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Randy doesn't reply to my e-mails any more than he does this post , lol ... but I don't want to be accused of not giving credit where it is due on topics I find interesting enough to participate in .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Jacksonville FL
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single registration wasnt intended to go make a cross bred litter than single register the ones that look like one breed or the other. i have problem with this and i think UKC should reject any registrations that the lineage is known to be mixed up between breeds

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Single registration rules were changed in the B&T breed a few years back and now single registering a crossbred is not allowed when a few years prior it was allowed.

I do not know how Randy is planning on getting his dogs into the breed if he keeps breeding them back to their Walker sire. To me it looks like the only hope to get them single registered into the breed would be to keep breeding the ones that meet the standard to others that meet the standard and/or UKC registered B&Ts until you can provide a true, proven, accurate three generation pedigree that shows only grade dogs that meet the breed standard and/or registered B&Ts...no Walkers.

Last edited by P.W. Chapman on 02-03-2009 at 08:05 PM

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It is not my goal to register any of my dogs in any registry. It is my goal to produce a B&T colored hound that suits me. That may never come, but that is what I'm shooting for. Everyone has their own methods of getting or producing the dogs they like and that's all I'm doing. People might not agree with it, but I bet we can all agree that it is sure nice to live in a free country. If I get one I think should be registered and the rules allow I might register it, but that's so far down the road I don't give it much thought. However, I have heard similar statements like Mr. Chapman's before and I do think some clarification needs to be made.

Here are the current rules:

REQUIREMENTS

Person wishing to single registration must be a member of the American Black and Tan Coonhound Association.

Black and Tan coonhounds are eligible that meet the UKC Black and Tan Breed Standards. You must have in your possession a complete three generation ancestral pedigree. Black and Tan must be able to open trail a raccoon and hold tree for five (5) minutes.


From what I read, the 3-gen pedigree has no qualifications. It doesn't say any or all the dogs must be grade, b&T, or anything else, just a 3 gen pedigree. At least, that's what I see, maybe you have more information than I do.

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Look Randy, I am not trying to be a jerk or know it all or anything like that, but I know for a fact a few years ago after all the hub-bub about Hardrock that the B&T Association changed the single registration requirements to exclude crossbred hounds. Now that might have been changed back since then, but I haven't heard anything about it...what you have in that quote from the Association website seems to be just a short synopsis for brevity's sake...It doesn't even list the info for the cost on there...

Last edited by P.W. Chapman on 02-03-2009 at 08:31 PM

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Either way, I'm not worried about it and I don't think you are a jerk. I'm doing this for me. Registration papers to me are not that important compared to having dogs produce what I like, coon treeing machines that are Black and Tan. YEAH BABY! That's what I want! We all know it's not for the money, it's the adventure and challenge of doing something I set out to do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by brogy


I've often said in the past, I've dabbled in other breeds, observed them on a level playing field, looked into them objectively, and came to the conclusion that it is easier to sort through the junk in the Walker breed than it is to find the hidden gems in the other breeds especially when limited to how many dogs you can feed, how much time you're willing to dedicate to "maybes", how far you're willing to travel to look for it, and even if I found it I'd probably wouldn't be able to afford it. That said, there is plenty of junk in the Walker breed it is not hard to understand why some folks prefer another breed.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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It's pretty pathetic that a breed club would change the rules because of one dog .... and on top of that , after the fact ... makes B&T hunters look like a bunch of wusses ... dumb ones to boot.

I think I'll just say my dogs are curs that look like B&T so I used some old papers to at least get them registered ... it's less embarassing that way .

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1. Randy you said you intentions werent to register them, but I looked back on a post you made to this thread earlier and you said that you were going to register them. Which is it?

2. I agree with two toes, maybe this guy hasnt stepped in enough dog crap to figure anything out.

3. Mr. Smith, your cur dog comments make me wonder why you are fooling with UKC at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
1. Randy you said you intentions werent to register them, but I looked back on a post you made to this thread earlier and you said that you were going to register them. Which is it?

2. I agree with two toes, maybe this guy hasnt stepped in enough dog crap to figure anything out.

3. Mr. Smith, your cur dog comments make me wonder why you are fooling with UKC at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Two toes
You clearly are a lil excessive of the blind/ignorant side to even say something like this!

"A FEW HIDDEN GEM'S"?

Enlighten me old famous northwood's hunter on your extended list of accomplishment's within your chosen esteemed genetic gene pool you have established............

They are most deffinately figured to win in any & every 12 dog hunt they are in huh ?

Bring your head outa the cloud's & slap yourself back to reality............

"MAYBE'S".............. "WOW".............YOU DA MAN....................

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back to the original topic of the thread....

One of the very best coondogs I ever got to hunt with was a redbone x cur cross named "Ol Red"...

He was an outstanding dog. We tried several times to get some decent pups out of him out of some good coon treeing females. One was a particularly nice bluetick female. None of his pups came close to making the grade.

Maybe if we had tried breeding him back to something he had been related to it would have been better, but I haven't really been enthused by the prospects of a crossbred as a reproducer since that early education LOL...


I am no rancher either, but I do know that crossbred cattle often outperform purebred cattle in the beef business...but I look up and see where the acorns come from and notice that they keep purebreds to make those crosses instead of trying to breed from the crossbreds.

Last edited by P.W. Chapman on 02-03-2009 at 11:13 PM

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Yes, chapman they do this in livestock because they are breeding for faster growing calves, less bone, quality of meat and carcass. They are not trying to get a dog to go hunting, strike a track, move the track. locate the tree, stay at the tree barking until you get here and by the way look good and sound good and be a easy keeper and be a good mother and etc., etc. thats why justin smith dont get it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by P.W. Chapman
I know what you mean. My point was that the crossbreds themselve don't hold up and keep producing when bred to each other. The purebreds are the superior breeding stock...

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Last edited by on 02-04-2009 at 04:46 AM

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Well it is blowing blue snow out there tonight with a wind chill down below zero...might be a fair night to you northern boys brogy, but I am content here by the fire so I'll elaborate on what I was talking about...got nothing better to do LOL...

What I was meaning was that in the livestock businesses that crossbreds often turn out to be fine performers, yet the demand for keeping purebred cattle remains high. As my old man always tells me, "Son, look up and see where the acorns come from!"----If those crossbreds finish out better and out perform the purebreds AND could be bred to each other and continue to put out a better product, then there would be no need for the purebreds to even exist....but that isn't the case, now is it? The purebreds remain in high demand, and one reason for that is to breed with other purebreds to produce those outstanding first generation crossbreds for market, not for breeding....

When it comes to dogs we had a lot more crossed up and grade dogs when I was young than we had registered dogs. Some of them, as I mentioned earlier, were dang fine hounds. But even though we bred some good individuals together we seldom, if ever, got good pups from them. Maybe it was just us, but I took notice of that even back then.

One thing I wonder about is the *KC crossbred registry. I know they do some winning. I wonder how many of them turn out to be top producers too, and if they breed the crossbreeds to other crossbreeds....or do they go back and cross another full bluetick to another full walker to get more 1st generation crossbreds... I don't know the answer to that, because I am not familiar with the *KC hunts, but I have a hunch I know which one is happening more...

Now, I am sure that there are crossbreds that go on to be good reproducers, and I have a feeling that those individuals are so rare and special that they wind up often founding (or help found) whole new breeds or strains within breeds, but a fellow might have to sift through a lot of junk to get one...Plus if they do find success I bet it is often by being bred back into one of the parent breeds kind of over time (something we never really tried out with our grade dogs and crossbreds)....


Then again I could be wrong and probably am lol....

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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What yall are calling "purebreds" are just about all carrying the blood from a nick ... there aint a pure flock or herd of anything these days ....


... and actually , "purebred" is what they call the livestock with outside blood up close .... "fullblood" is what you call the actual pure stock ... but hey , don't let a lack of education stop you from teaching ... we'd have no school system if we all thought like that .

When it comes to performance animals ... hens , cattle , quarterhorses and dogs ... fresh blood and variation is needed to maintain healthy , robust stock .

Show calves , lap dogs and such ..... that's where "purity" is more important than what the animal can do .. and just look at where that gets you ... yall know you don't even want to go into all the f'd up purebred dog breeds that go more health problems than they have fleas.

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What folks also like to do is dramatize things or expound on the exceptions to make themselves look right ..

For every example of a crossbred hound that produced junk ... I can give you one from purebred stock to match it .

For every time your uncle or third cousin did something to support your argument ... my grandpappy did it and succeeded.

So ... let's move past the flopping and into something deeper , if you need to ... go ahead and put on a lifevest.

Not every cross is a nick .... and not every purebred mating is either.

It takes many crosses and many years before a nick pops up and has the right stuff to be something that can be bred back into the breed and make a positive influence.

Know what that means ?? ... it means as with all sciences or animal breeding ... we have to keep experimenting and looking for something that will improve what we have.

If you try something once , and it didn't work ... it's neither scientific or worth the time .... you gotta have faith and do it a dozen times before you can even begin to say you have seen a pattern.

Mcdonald ... I'm still laughing at you wondering why a cur guy would bother with UKC ... did you know UKC registers all kinds of cur when you typed that ?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
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Yes, Mr. Smith I knew this, was wondering why your on hound forum, they have cur dog section. You must be studying animal science at a university. Maybe randys your teacher? Lord help us.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joseph mcdonald
Yes, Mr. Smith I knew this, was wondering why your on hound forum, they have cur dog section. You must be studying animal science at a university. Maybe randys your teacher? Lord help us.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Mr. Smith, Im going to leave this subject alone . We've beat it to death! I will say this as a parting comment..... Guys like you and people who agree with your ideas will only be with a breed just long enough to screw it up for the serious breeders, then you'll move on to another breed and start all over again. Thats fine!! It just means that the serious guys will have to work harder just like always. Thank you for the discussion, wish you all the luck with your endeavors, and if you ever get to IL, look me up and we'll go tree some coon.

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