Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

Read the constitution.

The Founding Fathers are all probably laying face down by now.

Federal Government has already far over reched their intended usefullness now we are going to give them the power to decide which businesses fail and which survive?

Are we all on crack?

Unions, CEO's, poor product, poor business plan...theres plenty of blame to go around.

One thing for SURE, its NOT working...Somtimes businesses need to fail so they can be rebuilt stronger.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 39

phone call to your union hall.77.oo is not true and not even 70.00

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 659

Here is another way of looking at it. I am in the Sheet Metal Workers Union. People ask me what I make an hour and I tell them $25 and some get mad. However when I tell them that my yearly salary is about 45,000 and thats if I work all year. 45,000 is by no means rich. We struggle some months to make ends meet. What am I suppose to do feel ashamed about the money I earn??? Go tell my wife and little girls I make to much money. Wages are something that are bargained for. And people have to remember that the union members AND management both signed that contract. There is pluses and minuses to labor unions.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by walkertalk
phone call to your union hall.77.oo is not true and not even 70.00

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Last edited by elvis on 12-04-2008 at 09:24 PM

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Al
Posts: 3070

quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
77.00 is what was broadcast on the national news. They were compareing it against 44.00 per hour that hundai spends.

After a little more research I now understand that all the wages,health benefits,pensions and everything, divided by the number of workers they have, is what comes to 77.00 per hour. Which is what GM passes on to the consumer with the price of a new vehicle if we can afford one.

Hundai,on the other hand, is a non-union shop and has been able to keep that number at 44.00, seems to be much more efficeint and is NOT asking the taxpayers for a bailout.

My thoughts are perhaps if a company gets so large that it threatens to send the country into a depression if it fails, it needs to fail and be broke up into smaller companys who can each more efficiently operate on a smaller scale and not threaten national security with bad business practices leading to a taxpayer bailout.

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__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: indiana
Posts: 242

Elvis
you need to do a bit more research,I don't know any auto workers making $ 77.00 dollars an hour.
I just heard one fella was going to work for a dollar a year,and in mexico they make all kinds of big money. but there isn't many of them big G.M cars&trucks being drove around down there.
As soon as the people figure out ,it's not all about the share holders,things will then take a turn in the right direction.
I as a tax payer I don't want to bail anyone out,but I would rather it be someone who makes a product,than a bank or insurance co.
that doesn't do a thing.
I'm sure this will get deleted ,but it won't be last one. It makes me laugh.
The big3 can't blame their problems on the hourly workers,heck they payed Tiger 8 million a year to be a buick salesman.look at the money that they spend on racing.

Kevin Z

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Stilwell, Ok
Posts: 47

a capitalistic society should be "bailout" free. the nature of the market is to cull out the weak and reward the strong so the competitive edge is always there to help produce new innovations and better the products. the market is the "necessity" that IS the mother of invention. If swift changes occur and lumbering corporate giants are too slow and cumbersome to keep up, maybe they should be reduced and re-tooled after they file bankruptcy. So far i've been surviving on $30,000 dollars annually. Live within your means. The more bailouts, the more our dollar weakens.

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location: Bloomfield, KY
Posts: 79

In the 80's Reagan put temporary protective tariffs on Japanese motorcycle companies to keep Harley Davidson from going under. Harley restructured, got their house in order and are now doing pretty well. Why not something similar for the big 3.? America has basically lost its electronics, steel, textile, R&D etc. industries; now the automotive industry is on the ropes, more and more white collar jobs are going over seas and noone seems to care. Maybe we need to review some of our trade policies.? I remember a couple of years ago where Bush was trying to pass a trade deal with India that gave them more of our nuclear technology and white collar jobs and in return we got mangos grown in India. (thanks for having our best interest at heart big guy)

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: indiana
Posts: 242

I always wonder where them good mango's came from.thanks G.W.

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Cashiers NC
Posts: 49

I don't think we should bailout anybody because just as AIG has already done they will be back in 2 months begging for more. Don't be fooled by the $700 billion the bailout is now up to over $8 trillion when you include everyone that is getting a handout. Several state governors met with the President-Elect and they to are asking for a bailout. Throwing money at it will not fix the problem. Let me say that I don't want to see anyone lose their job because we all have to live somehow but these banks , auto-makers, states etc.. need to get ridiculous spending under control. The unions started out a good thing but I think they have followed suit with our government and let money corrupt them. I think we should let the Big 3 file bankruptcy and restructure. Bankruptcy doesn't mean they go out of business but they are going to have to cut the fat and tighten the belt and with bankruptcy they will be able to dump the unions and if I were unions in this economy I would do whatever I could to keep working even if it meant a pay cut, it's better than not working at all like a lot of other Americans. By the way who do you think is going to pick up the tab on all of this? You guessed it , you and me. I agree with a previous post that if left alone the system can fix a lot of this itself. How do we stimulate an economy you ask? We have to let people keep more of the money they earn.The more they keep the more they spend. We need to lower taxes across the board. Put a freeze on capital gains taxes and give small businesses as well as large corporations tax cuts because they are the ones that employee most of us. But to me the worst thing about these bailouts is that Government now controls us even more. They now basically own these major banks,freddie mac and fannie mae and with the new administration coming in they are also talking about government controlled health care. Anytime the government has too much involvement it is always a mess. They will basically be able to tell us how we can live. I think the government should butt out of our businesses and let the system take care of it's self. Maybe they could do something smart like implement The Fair Tax, now there is a real solution.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: NE/MO
Posts: 579

The 77 per hour elvis is stating accounts for the full benefit of the job rolled into an hourly sum, which includes health care premiums and retirement matches. It's not the hourly wage you take home, or even the hourly wage you pay taxes on. But it IS the FULL BENEFIT of the job, all things considered. I think unions can still have a place in this country, but the leadership there has to realize there are people in this country and others that are willing to work for less, and everyday other countries become more industrialized and have products to export to the US.

Josh said it best, there is enough blame to go around. Unions overpriced themselves and lead to extremely high labor costs. Leadership within the company failed to provide proper guidance on R&D efforts, and American autos are now inefficient and lack quality compared to those outside the "BIG 3." Couple these two factors with the global economy, and wah-la...BAIL OUT NEEDED.

Finally, one other thought. Anybody think its funny that Congress asked these "CEO's" for business plans? If they can come up with a plan in 7 days to bring their company back in the black with government assistance, how in the heck did these companies get in this situation to start with? (See above) It's quite laughable.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location:
Posts: 46

down

Last edited by treerat chopper on 12-05-2008 at 12:05 AM

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location:
Posts: 46

they must not be hurting too bad a buddy of mine went to the
ford dealer and wanted a 2008 f-250 harley davidson edition.they
wanted 66,000 dollars for it.they said they would come down to
64,500.he wanted to trade in his 2005 f-250 4x4 with 52,000 and
they were going to give him 16,000 dollars for it, they said
deisels were not worth anything but the 2008 was a deisel 4x4
also.

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 659

The only thing that got me about what elvis said was that the Average is 77 an hour seems hard to imagine that is the average.

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Catawissa,Pa
Posts: 378

guys, why are we talkin about the people who make 77 or what ever amount, when we all should be worrying about the little people, how many small town people will loose their jobs? what i'm talking about is the compunies that make the floor mates or other things for the cars an trucks. we have one in town that employes atleast a thouand people/If they dont bail them out what happens when the demand stops, and they lay off a heck of a lot of people. alot of families will be hurtin. just my 2 cence.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 39

AND ALL BENEFITS. it is still less than 70.00 just call a union hall and you will see.my last post on this.happy hunting to all.gone hunting

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: BLOOMFIELD IOWA
Posts: 2439

I don't know what to think. But I say if some of the Auto makers don't get help, you think times are bad now wait till then. Can only get worse in my opinion. And that don't count!

__________________
Bryan J.

SAVE THE COON, HUNT WITH A HOUND!

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: NE/MO
Posts: 579

Yeah.............
I know, the UNION says it isn't anywhere near $77/hour. And the oil companies said they were losing money selling gas at $4 a gallon this summer. And I bet the fox don't know what happened to the chicken either.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: central Ia.
Posts: 661

I think you all are beating your keyboards to death....................................and not getting anywere!LOL!

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Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Hoosier State
Posts: 90

I've watched alot on this issue, one thing that amazes me is that as time goes on, they change what they need just to stay afloat. They are actually up to 75 billion and possibly up to 125 billion. I am really confused about this one though, on one hand I understand what the Big 3 going under would mean to alot of Americans and their families. On the other hand if a small business owner makes a bad jugdment on a product, do they get the same bail-outs...No, they go out of business or they file bancruptcy and start over. When a company pays the amounts they pay for the retirees of these companies to allow them to live above thier means, move to Florida or buy a second or third home, I find that to be a little much. I understand these people have worked many years and should receive a decent retirement, but when it sends companies such as the Big 3 into the trouble they are today then it needs to be changed and they need to adjust the retirement plans they offer. If I really thought the bail out would actually do some good, then I would say go for it. But when every analyst I've heard talk say it won't do anything but to postpone the enevitable then I say we are just throwing money at a problem we can't fix anyway. These companies in my opinion need to adjust to the average Americans style of living, pay check to paycheck. When you are selling cars that are being sold for 70-80,000 and everyone has been saying for years to work on developing greener style cars, then I think these companies were more worried about thier pockets than trying to do anything to help their fellow Americans. But look now, they are looking to their fellow Americans now whe they need our money. Vehicles are made cheaper with poorer quality every year, they build them so that you can't barely work on them yourselves anymore and for years they have been building vehicles that use alot of fuel. They have been doing all this for years not concerned about the average American, making us pay more for the vehicles, spend more on repairs and pay more for gas to drive the vehicles. America is being built on greed, even the average person is greedy anymore. When people would rather trample someone at a wal-mart to get a deal or shoot another person to buy a toy at toys r us. I am the most patriotic person you will ever meet, but lately I don't have much simpathy for what Americans are becoming. We need to learn to live with less, not be dependant on matrial things and just be more humane to each other. If we would all just learn to treat each other with a little respect and be more honest and decent to others then we wouldn't be in the place we are today. This would apply to all the different industries that have asked for money from the government. They should have asked what can we do to make a positive impact on our country and not how much can we get these suckers to buy to fatten our wallets. So I don't know what the answer is, I feel for the workers of these companies, I don't want to see anyone loose their job, it's rough I know..trust me..I'm a Realtor so you might as well say I've lost my job. I tried to help everyone I worked with get houses they could afford and a loan that was right not a loan that was good for the bankers. As I saw though, many cleints wanted a house they couldn't afford and many I sent to other agents. I do not believe helping people ruin themselves is the right thing to do. But as I noticed, the other Realtors that do this on a normal basis are still selling homes to people that want to live above their means. It's the American dream, big house,2 new cars...buy more than your neighbor....I just don't get it anymore. So bail-out or not, it really won't matter anyway what we say as Americans. The government will do as they please wether we say we agree or not, look at AIG. They gave, AIG spent stupidly, came back for more and got it then went back to the weekend retreats. I wish the government would give me money for a weekend away right now....We will see what happens, I just hope it doesn't get much worse for the country. We live in a great country that just needs to come back to reality and appreciate what we have compared to other people in the world. Just my opinion...

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Al
Posts: 3070

I think the Big three need to call a prayer meeting and call on the only help that really matters !


Lord Have Mercy !

__________________
Well Stanley,this looks like another fine mess you've gotten us into

Ray Hudson

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

first its the bank-then the automakers-

who is next--? i cant blame them for trying --lol


they already have laws in place to help them--

its called chapter 12 -


i know who is going to have to bail out the govenment--


the taxpayers-




your kids or grandkids will be paying taxes to pay for what the govenment is spending now -



millions billions trillions- whatever--

the government doesnt have a big pile of money somewhere-

all they have is the ability to raise taxes-
somebody is going to have to pay it back-

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

The thing that scares me is these politicians talking about running the business. Most of the problem is from what they've done in the past. Politicians and lawers aren't my favorite people.
All these people at the bottom who are losing jobs are and have been tax payers, lots of tax. Same with the big 3, and they also had the factories that were needed in the World Wars. It's bad enough when Walmart puts the local store that you grew up with out of business and he has to go find a job but the magnitude of the Auto industry in the US going under is all about people and familys , and lets face it we're not the same as we were during the depression. Alot of the farms are gone along with the woods and game. Most of us don't even know where the food comes from any more.

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: OHIO 44683
Posts: 1417

quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Eastman
Here is another way of looking at it. I am in the Sheet Metal Workers Union. People ask me what I make an hour and I tell them $25 and some get mad. However when I tell them that my yearly salary is about 45,000 and thats if I work all year. 45,000 is by no means rich. We struggle some months to make ends meet. What am I suppose to do feel ashamed about the money I earn??? Go tell my wife and little girls I make to much money. Wages are something that are bargained for. And people have to remember that the union members AND management both signed that contract. There is pluses and minuses to labor unions.

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 70

Union wages, pension, health insurance, holiday contribution, workers comp. unemployement compensation, medicare, state and federal payroll taxes and various union dues cost the EMPLOYER just below $ 80.00 per hour, the employee actually gets paid $17.00 - $42.00 per hour.
If you run your company out of business, your out of business and any amount of money won't help. If you understood how to run a business they would have fired their CEO's and made cut back's and various other management decisions long before it got to this point.

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