Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Nashua, Iowa
Posts: 504

Great addition to the MOH/Hunt Director format UKC. This will help out small clubs and ours especially. Our last hunt the MOH did not tell us he was not coming so we had around 25 dogs, with no MOH. Thankfully our one liscensed MOH took over duties, even though he had his dog ready and wanted to hunt. Most clubs, not all but most, have 2-3 people that are not hunting that stick around. With this new format our club will not be put on the spot if a MOH does not show up. It will also keep our costs down as I see us using this format over the MOH format in the near future. THANKS!

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: silver lake
Posts: 1505

i think its a great ideal a moh is just someone to hear some crybaby or most the time a sore looser that does the cryin
!!! good job ukc !! now work on a few more changes

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Marianna, Florida
Posts: 570

I have called several MOH`s in the past that lives within 1 hr 1/2 of our club to see if they would hlp when our Moh couldn`t make it, and they charged $50. That is more then what the club makes on some of these hunts. Thank God for Mr. CD Watson for stepping up and helping when ever we need him, and he has never charged a dime to any club and has been doing it for 50 years. He has just got too old and it is dangerous for him to be riding that late at night. But he still would help if needed.

This will save the clubs alot of money and heart aches wondering if the MOH`S will show up.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Saw where there was some discussion on the "option" to re-cast in situations where a dog that is out but not declared struck. Good points were made in that the rule is not very clear. I agree it is not. One of those things after the fact that we should probably have looked into and re-wrote the terminology when we had the opportunity. Could have, quite possibly, eliminated any questions in this regard had we done that.

The current terminology is as follows; ", then he must be turned loose with other dogs that are opening on trail and will recieve etc. etc.." Currently, whenever we have dogs treed and the tree is scored we can flip them back in to dogs even though they might not be declared struck right? Strike positions are simply all open in such a situation.

With the "option" change using the scenario described by elvis; the answer would be; yes, you have the "option" to re-cast to a dog that has not been declared struck. Just like you would under current rules when no dogs are declared treed after the scoring of a tree.

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location: north central IA
Posts: 41

The Hd is a great idea. Getting a panel is the way to go. But why does he have to stick around, he can't hunt but his brother can hunt his dog for him.

That's the only part that doesn't make sense. If the HD is hunting and part of the ques he can't make or be part of the panel. Simple as that.

As far as favortism on the panel, I've been in front of a moh that was friends of the person in question, Heck I've even seen them ride to the hunt together! I love it just not the part of the HD sticking around.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Panasoffkee, Florida
Posts: 1116

As usual Jim was right. I spoke with Allen. I intrepreted the word "trailing" to indicate barking and in reality it should just read "as long as atleast one dog is still out". In this case trailing doesn't mean "trailing".

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by Clay Lautzenhiser
As usual Jim was right. I spoke with Allen. I intrepreted the word "trailing" to indicate barking and in reality it should just read "as long as atleast one dog is still out". In this case trailing doesn't mean "trailing".

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1745

One dog is treed the other is trailing.
At what point can I exercise my option to flip or not flip my dog loose?
I know that I got 5 min. before a tree is closed, so the judge say's lets walk toward the dog treed , it's more than 5 mln. away.
There needs to be a certain point that this option needs to be exercised, like before we start to the dog that is treed over 5 min away or within 1 min. from scored tree or next bark from the trailing dog or when the judge says to.

I would hate to see a dog get walked over a coon trail , and his handler then decide to exercise his option to flip loose.

"Strange things tend to happen at dark."
Stranger still at a "nite hunt."

Last edited by Dogwhisper on 11-08-2008 at 12:14 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by superlooper
The Hd is a great idea. Getting a panel is the way to go. But why does he have to stick around, he can't hunt but his brother can hunt his dog for him.

That's the only part that doesn't make sense. If the HD is hunting and part of the ques he can't make or be part of the panel. Simple as that.

As far as favortism on the panel, I've been in front of a moh that was friends of the person in question, Heck I've even seen them ride to the hunt together! I love it just not the part of the HD sticking around.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: SOUTHEASTERN ILLINOIS
Posts: 1451

well i ain't had to much experience with a panel so maybe it will grow on me but i still don't like putting up 20 bucks.

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Mike,
I don't like the idea of having to carry an extra $20 on me just in case either but it is amazing how that can cut down on the number of stupid questions that come up to drag everyone back to the club. The way it is (or was) it is way to easy for someone with little to no rules knowledge or some poor sport to throw a fit and drag everyone back to the clubhouse.

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Dogwhisper, as I understand it, when a dog breaks the 8 the judge would ask the handler(s) if they want to cast or lead their dog. If they opt to lead the dog, they cannot recast until the next tree is scored and the 8 is then broke again. Of course if no dog is treed, casting isn't an option, in that situation you MUST recast. If all dogs are treed, no one can recast.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Dogwhisper, as I understand it, when a dog breaks the 8 the judge would ask the handler(s) if they want to cast or lead their dog. If they opt to lead the dog, they cannot recast until the next tree is scored and the 8 is then broke again. Of course if no dog is treed, casting isn't an option, in that situation you MUST recast. If all dogs are treed, no one can recast.

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Last edited by elvis on 11-08-2008 at 03:19 AM

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Oh yeah, I guess if a dog is treed the 8 is broke by the dog treeing....
Anyway, the point is that as I was made to understand it, if you opt to lead your dog to the tree, you cannot recast that dog untill that tree is scored and all dogs are prepared to recast.
In other words, you cannot say I'm leading my dog to the tree and then change your mind when you happen to walk your dog over a hot track on the way to the tree. Is that the way you got it?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Oh yeah, I guess if a dog is treed the 8 is broke by the dog treeing....
Anyway, the point is that as I was made to understand it, if you opt to lead your dog to the tree, you cannot recast that dog untill that tree is scored and all dogs are prepared to recast.
In other words, you cannot say I'm leading my dog to the tree and then change your mind when you happen to walk your dog over a hot track on the way to the tree. Is that the way you got it?

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 136

brogy

I don't like the idea of having to carry an extra $20 on me just in case either but it is amazing how that can cut down on the number of stupid questions that come up to drag everyone back to the club. The way it is (or was) it is way to easy for someone with little to no rules knowledge or some poor sport to throw a fit and drag everyone back to the clubhouse. They way I see it is that everyone that comes and pays to hunt they're dog should be responsible. If everyone plays by the rules to the best of they're ability and behaves like sportsman we would not need someone to sit at the clubhouse. Situations will come up where they're should be a club official to guide the cast into a resolution, but deal with them as they come up. If a cast happens to lose a guide for some reason and needs another, return to the club and wait. I'm sure a club member will arrive and be willing to take you back out to finish your hunt. I see no reason why the club couldn't extend the deadline for that cast.

I can see UKC's reasoning behind it but I just don't like it.
If I can get 3-4 club members willing to rotate HD duties it will surely help out. I was just hoping UKC would let the HD hunt, that would take care of the issues we are having at our club. Having the option is a good move by UKC. You need to stay with AKC

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 136

brogy
You need to stay with AKC, some day you will get more people to follow.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: SOUTHEASTERN ILLINOIS
Posts: 1451

yeah i guess it will cut down on stupid ?'s, from what ive seen this year on my cast's there has only been 3 ?'s brought back to the moh and i won 2 of those the 3rd one i took a wild shot which i pretty much knew i was gonna lose.

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And those wildshots that you purty much know you are gonna lose are the questions that will no longer be brought back if a $20.00 bond is required.
Keep in mind the 20 is only required for a panel question. A question for the MOH is still free.

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Registered: Feb 2005
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Posts: 1745

JiM I understand that changeing your mind(OPTION) is not an option.
I would like to know at what point can I exercise my option to flip or not flip? After a tree is scored? One min. after a tree is scored? or walking a reasonable distance away from a scored tree?Or when the judge/cast agrees to exercise the option,to the dogs on leash.
I see a gray area in this new rule(11). It's left open to ones' interpertation "as one sees' fit."
I would like to see this option be "required" to be exercised immediately after a tree is scored.
JMHO.

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I would say you have to make your decision at the point when the judge would narmally say "cast your dogs". I understand that under the old rule he would not say that if a dog was treed but imagine that 3 dogs are scored on a tree and a 4th dog is loose but not struck in. In that situation you must recast those dogs when the judge commands them to cast there dogs. Underc the new rule, I would think at that point those three must make their decision to cast or lead. Of course it is not even a chioce if no dog is treed but assuming a dog treed and a dog trailing, you choose at the point when the judge says recast them.
That is how I will do it until Allen tells me differently.

And I think I will go back to handling my own dog next year. Since I can no longer sit in the truck and follow the action with my GPS, I might as well walk with the cast and if I'm walking, I'm handling.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: wakeman, ohio
Posts: 2294

Master of Hounds/Hunt Director
Effective January 1, 2009, all clubs/organizations will have the option to use either a Master of Hounds or a Hunt Director Format. The MOH format will be no different than in the past, with exception to the Formal Complaint procedure. Any individuals not satisfied with a MOH ruling on a question may file a Formal Complaint for a fee of $20. If the FC panel finds in favor of the complainant the fee is refunded. Otherwise, the fee is forwarded to UKC for a final decision and the fee is dispersed into the Youth Fund. Glad to hear this!

Clubs may now also choose to use a Hunt Director. The Hunt Director will not have the authority a MOH would have, but nonetheless the individual is in charge of the event. A Hunt Director will be in charge of taking entries, drawing and calling casts, including publicly reading a checklist relative to a HD format prior to calling out casts. Just about anybody can do this, simple enough so far. A HD will stay at the headquarters or clubhouse at all times during a licensed event. This is where I start having questions. If the HD has no authority, what's the problem with him hunting? He'd have to be back to the club house by deadline anyway, that's when paperwork gets done and reciepts are handed out. If a question arises in the woods, the complainant must first deposit $20 to the HD prior to assembling a panel. Otherwise, the question will not be heard. The HD must then assemble a panel of three qualified individuals QUALIFIED is the key word. Who decides if a person is QUALIFIED? I know a few people that THINK they are QUALIFIED. I know a few that even I THOUGHT were QUALIFIED, come to find out they are not. to hear and rule on the question. If the panel finds in favor of the complainant the fee will be refunded.

A HD must stay at the clubhouse or headquarters. A HD will not be allowed to hunt/handle his dog(s) in the event. However, the HD’s dog(s) may be entered in the event and handled by another individual, including a family member. The HD will be responsible for the scorecards when casts return. The HD will check all scores and does have the authority to correct mathematical errors should they occur. The HD will also be responsible for doing the event paperwork and handing out win receipts etc. IF this person does not have to be a QUALIFIED MOH, who's to say he can efficiently tally up scores? I've seen MOH get confused on ocassion. Is this HD going to be trained by a QUALIFIED MOH to do the paperwork? I've done paperwork many times for MOH, but I've also been in situations where the MOH could not do it!?!

The HD format may be used at all events, with exception to all Purina Points Events - including Regional Qualifying Events - where a qualified Master of Hounds must be used. If this new procedure is ok for 'back woods, small time events, why is it not good enough for the "BIG TIME"?

The option of using a Hunt Director versus a Master of Hounds should help satisfy those clubs who have had difficulties in the past especially, in today’s economy, with having to pay a Master of Hounds, etc.If it's hard to find a MOH, and a lot of the time the MOH is the ONLY person still sitting at the club house during the Nite Hunt, who says it'll be easier to find a QUALIFIED person to be a HD? Also, says who are the HD not going to expect a little something for his trouble, especially in today's economy, at least a bit for gas? Refer to your 2009/2010 Coonhound Rulebook for more info on the HD format.

As I seen on another post, it's not required to tell people whether an event is MOH or HD oriented? Most people are going to want to know. Most people want to know if there is a QUALIFIED individual, as a licensed MOH to answer his questions. Just picking 3 people out of a crowd that may or may not be there, that may or may not be knowledgable to answer his questions, then be charged $20 to have his questions answered by the above? Besides, he may have to wait, with 54 minutes left to hunt his 2 hour hunt, for other hunters to come back to the clubhouse to be on this panel. Of which said hunters may not get there in time for this person to get his questions answered and still afford the time to finish his 54 minutes.
I also seen someone mention to "extend the deadline"? Isn't a DEADLINE A DEADLINE? Once that deadline is posted, isn't it supposed to be adhered to?

I've also found myself shaking my head when taking Nite Hunt entries I ask
A) Can you guide? Then, knowing this person that I'm asking is from this very club, says NO! I don't have anywhere to hunt. I say " Do you live around here? YUP. Do you own hounds? YUP. DO they hunt? YUP Did you train them? YUP. UHM, OKEDY DOKEY! and
B) Can you judge your cast? "NOPE"....oh boy! Do you nite hunt? YUP. Been doing it long? YUP. Know how it's done? YUP. Know the majority of the rules? YUP. Is reading a difficulty? NOPE. You can't judge? NOPE. OKEY DOKEY!

The responcibilty of running a Nite Hunt successfully not only lays on the shoulders of the host club, it also needs co operation of the hunters.

Another thought: A MOH is a much fairer situation, seeing as IF you have to get a MOH from another area, it's more likely that MOH is going to be a bit fairer than to have a club member to be a HD, and possibly have a hound in the hunt, and most likely the panel will be from said club also, the little guy from another state persay isn't likely to get a fair deal. Don't even try to tell me the buddy system doesn't beat an honest score.

Another thing, keep the $20 ? money and give that, if not just half that, to the MOH and that eleviates the cost to the club to pay the MOH.

It sounds like, maybe I'm wrong, that the KC's are trying to adhire to each other's rules. If a person wants to hunt under PKC rules, go to a PKC event. The same goes for UKC and AKC.

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Last edited by redneck_girl on 11-08-2008 at 10:55 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

I'm all for the HD..I know one club that want use another MOH come 09. I dont like the part of sitting at the club house. Aint no old coonhunters in our club.That means aint BSing going on all night lol...It will be just one person sitting around being bored to death..Like the other threads said..We are going to have to wait untill other casts come back to form a panel anyhow..I dont see why the HD could not hunt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sandburr
brogy
You need to stay with AKC, some day you will get more people to follow.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: SOUTHEASTERN ILLINOIS
Posts: 1451

i got a question, will the panel be held accountable by ukc for a wrong call?

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Home of these Hamilton county treeing walkers.
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' OWEN'S STYLISH NOCTURNAL SHAKER.
And the pup 'pr' Owen's Rock River Ace...

Mike Owen owner/handler. hunting in style (WALKER STYLE)

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