Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleepy head
Take the trap out of the picture. They find them barking at a candy bar, do they get a free pass?

---

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2768

I'm not sure it's a place of refuge if there's nowhere to hide and nothin in it. I'd minus everything on the card except for B's strike and I'd take a long hard look at what it's doin before I turned back in to it. Is it trailing 10 feet away or standing back 10 feet barking lol

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

Lets say instead of trap, everything is the same and they are barking at rolled up roll of wire fence where it's obviously coon free. I don't see how dog c gets away without deleting track and next tree minis. Jmo

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

If I walked in and mine was barking at an empty trap with a honey bun in it !!! I would get minused both ways then I would withdraw me and that dog would have a visit and you wouldn't see me with that dog at the next hunt.


Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

quote:

---

Originally posted by yadkintar
If I walked in and mine was barking at an empty trap with a honey bun in it !!! I would get minused both ways then I would withdraw me and that dog would have a visit and you wouldn't see me with that dog at the next hunt.


Tar

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Comer, Georgia
Posts: 435

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
Looks like the right dog won in the end,
The Advisor says caged coon or coon in a live trap can not be scored & the points are deleted. as for there being no coon in the trap and taking minus, it might just be a bad brake that we all get at times when we are comp coon hunting. so you very well could have scored it correctly but for the turning back in strike points that Jim pointed out.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

Sure don't see a caged coon in a trap and a caged honey bun in a trap being a scoring comparison

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 545

quote:

---

Originally posted by Country AintBad
So with the advisor stating that then the 225- would have been delete for dog a and dog c delete and still cut back in to dog b striking for next available being 50 then 25 for next dog struck.

I had argued that I thought I read something about a trap being considered a place of refuge once but couldn't find anything on score card, red rule book or the white one that plainly stated trap.

It's all good though even with 225 being deleted still wouldn't have changed the outcome. And that's why the question was removed because it wasn't a game changer in the end.

Thanks everyone for the education!

---

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

I believe the Advisor page you are looking for is page115 of the new edition. Coons that can't be scored.
Further on page135 although not dealing directly with a box trap the scenario is different with water , it still addresses a place of refuge as some have called the vacant trap and the definition. Read the answer given. I think it answers the question.
Still logically any time a dog comes up short and stays treed whether a stump ,a body of water,etc it gets minus if it has been declared treed.
In this case my vote would be to minus Dog A on both strike and tree. Minus dog C strike . Minus dog B tree and cut A,C into trailing Dog B depending on what it did when cast got into the box trap.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 03-04-2018 at 01:53 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Everyone is putting way to much thought into this. Its handled the same as dogs barking at a tight fence. Dog A gets minus both ways. B is minus his tree points and C gets minus on his strike. You cant give C next available tree point because that is strictly if the dog is found on a tree. Not a hole in the ground, on a fence, on a trap ect...

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

I guess i would of scored it wrong, most of the rules are mostly common sense if you think about them a while. My common sense isn't kicking in on this one.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2768

quote:

---

Originally posted by joey
Everyone is putting way to much thought into this. Its handled the same as dogs barking at a tight fence. Dog A gets minus both ways. B is minus his tree points and C gets minus on his strike. You cant give C next available tree point because that is strictly if the dog is found on a tree. Not a hole in the ground, on a fence, on a trap ect...

---

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleepy head
I guess i would of scored it wrong, most of the rules are mostly common sense if you think about them a while. My common sense isn't kicking in on this one.

---

__________________
AFTER DARK KENNELS

JEREMY KIDD
765-520-1552


*females*
GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
(Noct. Style X Southern Sky)

GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
(Wild Card X Jr's Janey)

NITECH ‘PR’ REBELS STYLISH MOJA
(Ol Souths Stylish Rebel X Janey)

AFTER DARK’S PURDY PENNY
(Big $$ X Janit)

NITECH' SEVEN MILE SLOOPY(R.I.P.)
(Skipper x Big time Trixie)

Proud UNION JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN
https://i.postimg.cc/654pWfzm/IMG-1920.png
I.B.E.W. LOCAL 1393

Last edited by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 at 01:02 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Two questions :

1. Is a honeybun considered off game ?
2. Can a dog be scratched for running or molesting a honeybun ?




Tar

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jkidd1
[B]I'm with u, if the dog shows treed when I get there and then I minus dog A in the "TREE" column, you better believe dog C is getting treated with the same courtesy, (RULE 4(j) whether it be a hole, fence, hollow log, old barn, or lake shore etc. It don't say anywhere is has to be strictly a tree. Anytime a dog is treeing but not declared treed and you minus one dog both strike & Tree, rule 4(j) should come into effect.

SO, I still got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus next available tree

DOG A & C are then recut l

Looks like we need an answer to the question of whether that empty live trap constitutes a tree, as it pertains to 4(j) or not. Me and joey say it doesn't, jkidd and Sleepy says it does. It doesn't matter who is right, but it does matter what is right.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1022

I say not a tree. If this was ruled a tree than it could be also applied to the stationary rule.

__________________
If You Don't Have A Tree Dog Then You Ain't Got $hit

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

My thoughts, if not a tree you can't award points, how can you minus? Place of refuse?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philip
My thoughts, if not a tree you can't award points, how can you minus? Place of refuse?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2009
Location: Haughton, Louisiana
Posts: 118

Rule 4J I got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus strike and awarded next available tree point's and minus tree point's.

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B and are eligible for next available strike point's which are 50 point's.

DOG A 225-
DOG B 75-
DOG C 100-

__________________
John Haun

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

---

Originally posted by jkidd1
I'm with u, if the dog shows treed when I get there and then I minus dog A in the "TREE" column, you better believe dog C is getting treated with the same courtesy, (RULE 4(j) whether it be a hole, fence, hollow log, old barn, or lake shore etc. It don't say anywhere is has to be strictly a tree. Anytime a dog is treeing but not declared treed and you minus one dog both strike & Tree, rule 4(j) should come into effect.

SO, I still got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus next available tree

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B

---

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

quote:

---

Originally posted by LoggyBayouBlues
Rule 4J I got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus strike and awarded next available tree point's and minus tree point's.

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B and are eligible for next available strike point's which are 50 point's.

DOG A 225-
DOG B 75-
DOG C 100-

---

__________________
AFTER DARK KENNELS

JEREMY KIDD
765-520-1552


*females*
GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
(Noct. Style X Southern Sky)

GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
(Wild Card X Jr's Janey)

NITECH ‘PR’ REBELS STYLISH MOJA
(Ol Souths Stylish Rebel X Janey)

AFTER DARK’S PURDY PENNY
(Big $$ X Janit)

NITECH' SEVEN MILE SLOOPY(R.I.P.)
(Skipper x Big time Trixie)

Proud UNION JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN
https://i.postimg.cc/654pWfzm/IMG-1920.png
I.B.E.W. LOCAL 1393

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2622

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rip
I get what you are saying but assigning points does not come into play on a ground hole because the handler has the option of not treeing in on those and you can score strike alone based on the ground hole. IF a dog is declared treed then the dog has tree points in play but otherwise it does not.

Now the question would be is this scored as a ground hole/place of refuge or a tree.

I am with Jim on this one just based on the fact that tree points are optional both plus and minus on ground holes/places of refuge. That rule is put into place because dogs don't act right at a hole and the rules makers knew it. That's why only one dog in the bunch has to show the hole to get every one of the dogs foolin with the hole circled/plussed or minused. I would think the same would apply here, the dog only had strike points to deal with and no way to assign him tree points because there are special rules in place for things like this and we would follow those instead of rules of a "tree".

---

__________________
AFTER DARK KENNELS

JEREMY KIDD
765-520-1552


*females*
GRNITECH' JR'S JANEY
(Xjr X Insane Jane)

GRNITECH ST. JOHN'S STYLISH REX
(Ol south stylish Rebel X Janey)

GRNITECH' AFTER DARK'S JAN-IT
(Sweat It X Janey)

DUAL GRNITE' LONETREE LEGEND (R.I.P.)
(Noct. Style X Southern Sky)

GRNITECH' STYLISH LITTLE PEG(R.I.P.)
(Trackman X Browns Little Peg)

GRNITECH 'PR' JANEY'S GOTTA GUN
(Wild Card X Jr's Janey)

NITECH ‘PR’ REBELS STYLISH MOJA
(Ol Souths Stylish Rebel X Janey)

AFTER DARK’S PURDY PENNY
(Big $$ X Janit)

NITECH' SEVEN MILE SLOOPY(R.I.P.)
(Skipper x Big time Trixie)

Proud UNION JOURNEYMAN LINEMAN
https://i.postimg.cc/654pWfzm/IMG-1920.png
I.B.E.W. LOCAL 1393

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

There is only one thing I really want to know. How far did the dogs run this cage before treeing it?

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

---

Originally posted by jkidd1
Also with Rule 4(j) I minus just next available tree and delete strike, this rule is under "Tree Minus"

---

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
There is only one thing I really want to know. How far did the dogs run this cage before treeing it?

---

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged