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Donnie Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I am curious to see just how many will be willing to spend the money for a high drive bred pup.

Is that kinda like a truck with a big gas tank it costs more to fill em up lol

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11-27-2017 04:32 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

You are right. I hadn't thought about the price but hot rods are pretty expensive.

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11-27-2017 04:35 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Haven't decided on a price but I won't give them away. If anyone thinks that a pup like I raise isn't worth $500 they need to raise, train, hunt and selectively breed a line of dogs for 20 yrs and raise their own pups. See how much that costs you.
Do you think that I charge too much?

Well....i kind of do breed, raise and train all my own stuff too. I probably spend more on doing that than 95% of others in the redbone breed so I know how expensive it can be. I never tell anyone what they should charge for their pups.
But....i have learned over the years that your never going to make all your money back...and some of the best people to get pups to either wont...or can't afford to pay big prices for a pup. And many of the best pup starters and trainers have people begging them to take one of their pups for free. I look at what's best for the pup. I give probably half of my pups to people who have proven to me that they know how to start a pup and then know how to finish it and win with it. If I tried to charge those people 500 for a pup...they would never have taken one and the pup may not have gotten the chance it deserves.
That's a personal choice...and I consider it a big part of why our breeding program is showing a lot of success in turning out litters which are going on to prove themselves in competition by winning and earning titles.
Is a pup worth a certain price...my answer is a pup is worth whatever someone will give for it.
In your case that may be $500....but in my case...I might settle for a promise from the potential owner to invest his time, blood, sweat and tears into starting and training one of my pups and then proving it in competition...if it has the tools to win.
A handshake and a promise like that from an experienced trainer and competition hunter is worth way more than $500 in my pocket because I am not breeding for money...im breeding to make better competition Redbones. The only thing I can do to help the pups that are produced from our program get the best chance they can is to get them into the best hands I can. To me...that isn't always hands that are shoving money at me because many of those people do not know how to start or train a pup.
Don't get me wrong...if I don't know a person really well or have not dealt with them much or at all in the past...I ask what I consider a fair price. Usually 300-400 for a nice pup out of a well bred grand nite champion female. But even then....I ask for the promise that they give that pup the chance it deserves and that they keep me updated on its progress from time to time and that if it makes a dog that can compete and win...that they give it the chance to prove it.
Not everyone does what they say...and I keep track of broken promises ...but, I also take into consideration life's ups and downs and family and work challenges
But anyone who takes one of my pups to the winners circle is always welcome to another one down the road.
We are not just building a breeding program...we are also building a team of friends and like minded people who share common goals and ideas in the Redbone breed.
I personally have not had to pay for a Redbone pup in 26 years....I usually get plenty of offers from people and I appreciate every one. I usually hunt what I breed...but when I have taken a pup that was offered...the breeder knows I will put everything I know and have learned over the years into making it something and that's all I ask from people who take pups from crosses we produce.
Good luck on your litter...I hope it will be a nice one!

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-27-2017 at 09:40 PM

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11-27-2017 09:32 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

That all sounds great in theory but in my opinion if you give someone a pup they have nothing invested in it and have no incentive to do anything with it. If someone pays $500 of their hard-earned dollars for a pup then they are going to do something with it or give it a chance. And if you sell nice pups they will get their new owners excited and they will hunt them.
I also think that everyone should price their own pups. Some people have plenty of money and can afford to give their pups away. Others are old and trying to get by on social security and can't afford to give them away.

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11-27-2017 10:03 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
That all sounds great in theory but in my opinion if you give someone a pup they have nothing invested in it and have no incentive to do anything with it. If someone pays $500 of their hard-earned dollars for a pup then they are going to do something with it or give it a chance. And if you sell nice pups they will get their new owners excited and they will hunt them.
I also think that everyone should price their own pups. Some people have plenty of money and can afford to give their pups away. Others are old and trying to get by on social security and can't afford to give them away.

It's not really a theory in my case....
I've give many pups to guys who went on to train those pups up and title them and win a lot of hunts with them.
Dual Grand Champion -PKC Gold Champion All Grand Outlaw G Man who has won more money in PKC and CHKC than any other Redbone was a free pup...as was his entire litter which includes his Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. brother Amos.
Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever (who i later bought back as a very well started dog) was a free pup I gave to Chad Porter who has started and trained several pups from us.
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Trip was a free pup
Her brother Nt.Ch. (with 3 or 4 wins towards grand) Hobo Herb was a free pup.
Nt.Ch. Beaver Creeks Eazy Peazy was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Pistol ( with 3 wins toward grand) was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Hunter was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Jinx was a free pup
Jinx sister Babe who has won almost 3k in PKC was a free pup....
In fact...i think more of my free pups have went on to title and win big hunts than the ones I charged for...HMMM
Well, anyway there is 10 or so from the last 3-4 years.
I could go on...but I think that's enough shoot some holes in your "theory" but maybe what works for me doesn't work for you...to each his own

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-27-2017 at 10:39 PM

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11-27-2017 10:32 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I think that I will call Richard Rawlings at the Gas Monkey Garage and ask him if he will give me the next hot rod that they build. I will promise him that I will race it.

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11-27-2017 11:14 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I think you and that other Richard have the same priority...lol
Mine might be a little different...but to each his own.

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11-27-2017 11:23 PM

Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Since Jinx was mentioned I�ll be glad to be an example. It�s true, she didn�t cost me a dime as far as purchase. Shane offered and agreed to stay on as half and he hitched her a ride halfway and I picked her up. A near green 10-12 month old that had been sent to another fella that quit or went on 3rd shift or something of the sorts. She however cost me a speeding ticket in the great state of VA on my way back. But, anyhow, I hunted her hard and often and kept him more than updated. She had one really stubborn issue we worked through together and it eventually all clicked. I will tell anyone, without a shadow of any doubt, I have probably worked as hard or harder with Jinx than any dog I�ve started. Why? Because I took his words serious that it wasn�t really expected to be �free�. No dog makes itself, so that journey is far from free in monetary cost and lack of sleep, friends, etc. So I have done and will continue to do my part. She�s 3 wins to grand and a ton of fun now (most nights 😉 ) for me and my kids.

The fact she was �free� was of less relevance than the agreement Shane and I had. My word and reputation is worth way more than the price of a pup, and me shelling out $500 for a purchase is NOT my promise to do anything. Nor is it anyone else�s. That $500, or whatever!, means I now can dang well do as I dang well please.

Maybe that�s just me, but if you�re a person that thinks the generations behind me doesn�t value their word like I do, then just imagine how they value a dollar.

All that said, I think a man, at a minimum!, should try and cover his cost, all else is up to them but trying to profit and improve the breed can hardly be accomplished simultaneously.

Last edited by Adam Wingler on 11-28-2017 at 01:55 AM

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11-28-2017 01:41 AM

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jkhutch
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

Let see here- The Word Free..... The last litter I had it cost me roughly aroud $1350.00 dollars to register,breed, and raise until 8 to 10 weeks old. You go to Petsmart and pay $2000.00 for a shishkapoo or labradoodle for one pup that comes with one set of papers from some made up registry that are out of a couple mutts to begin with. I dont think $400 to $800 for a dual or triple registered pup is to much to ask. I know if I spend $35K on a truck I take better care of it than a jeep I bought for $2400.

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Indiana
Redbones:
GRNTCH PKC Ch PR Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX DNA-V(Haze X Reba)-
2 Time UKC World Top 100
UKC World Top 20 (13th)
UKC Purina Redbone of the year
PKC Redbone CH
UKC Top Producers List
UKC Winter Classic High Scoring Redbone
Co owned with Richard Lambert

GrNtCh PKC Ch One Chance Fancy- (Boone X Toadie)
2018 Autumn Oaks Grand 16
2018 Grand National Redbone
2018 Redbones Days RQE 1st Place

Walkers-
NTCh PKC CH Jeb�s Finley River Peanut- Co owned with Bishop Stallcop
Claremont PKC Legacy hunt Final 4
PKC Breeders Showcase Final 4

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11-28-2017 04:22 PM

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jkhutch
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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
It's not really a theory in my case....
I've give many pups to guys who went on to train those pups up and title them and win a lot of hunts with them.
Dual Grand Champion -PKC Gold Champion All Grand Outlaw G Man who has won more money in PKC and CHKC than any other Redbone was a free pup...as was his entire litter which includes his Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. brother Amos.
Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever (who i later bought back as a very well started dog) was a free pup I gave to Chad Porter who has started and trained several pups from us.
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Trip was a free pup
Her brother Nt.Ch. (with 3 or 4 wins towards grand) Hobo Herb was a free pup.
Nt.Ch. Beaver Creeks Eazy Peazy was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Pistol ( with 3 wins toward grand) was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Hunter was a free pup
Nt.Ch. Jinx was a free pup
Jinx sister Babe who has won almost 3k in PKC was a free pup....
In fact...i think more of my free pups have went on to title and win big hunts than the ones I charged for...HMMM
Well, anyway there is 10 or so from the last 3-4 years.
I could go on...but I think that's enough shoot some holes in your "theory" but maybe what works for me doesn't work for you...to each his own

Im not gonna argue with your theory but isnt or was most these owned and bred by direct members of Moonlight/Outlaw Crew anyways....

Last edited by jkhutch on 11-28-2017 at 04:37 PM

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11-28-2017 04:28 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jkhutch
[B]Im not gonna argue with your theory but isnt or was most these owned and bred by direct members of Moonlight/Outlaw Crew anyways.... [QUOTE]

I'm the breeder of all the litters they were from. But only two or three of these pups went to what I would call existing teamates .....the others went to people who were not at the time....but since then we consider them part of our team. That's the whole Idea...to prove the dogs, grow the team...and make new friends that can work together to reach our goals.
There is no argument here. I'm not telling people what to do with their pups...do what you want....its a free country and we are a capitalist society. I'm just saying that the theory that if you sell something for a huge price...people will put more time and effort I to it has never rang true in my eyes.
In fact I've seen the opposite and here is why....
A lot of people who pay those big prices for pups don't really know how to train one and they get this idea in their head that if they pay more...it must be better.
And if it's better, it shouldn't take as much time and work as something cheaper would...... lol
So some of these people pay $500-$1000 for a pup and then expect it to run and tree the first or 2nd time out and not have to go through the ups and downs that cheap pups do. I've actually had people justify spending $1000 on pups by telling me this....lol. So I know some people actually apply the old "you get what you pay for" adage to puppy prices.
Maybe in started or finished dogs that's true...but in 90% of Redbone pups produced today....you realistically have about a 20% chance at best of getting a pup that will go on to be what most expect they paid for.
That's just a fact. And if your a breeder that produces litters that are in the highest 10% .....then your customers might have a 40% chance....which still isn't great...but twice that of the lower average. So what does a seller say to the other 60%-80% of buyers who paid big money for a pup and it didn't turn out like they had hoped?
Usually they say something like ....well, they don't all make it...
Or well, you paid for a chance....not a guaranteed sure thing...
Both statements are true...but little consolation for those who plopped a way above average price down and got one of the short straws.
There is nothing unfair about how people price pups...they can price them for whatever they want and if somebody wants to pay it...then that's great.
I just don't buy the theory that a high price makes a buyer want to put even more time and effort into starting and training that pup. I think that leads to a pretty much certainty that 60%-80% of the buyers might feel ....unsatisfied or like maybe they paid too much and they may not return for another pup or may even feel like they got snookered a little.
I care about how the people who get pups from me feel about our transaction.
I want them to feel like they were treated fairly...even if the pup doesn't live up the their expectations.
But let me just say this...
My goal isn't to get rich off of dogs. I don't even expect to break even. This is a hobby and a passion...not a business like selling labradoodles or snickerdoodles. I have a job and that's where I make my living and much of what I make goes into my dogs. I do sell some pups to cover the cost of raising and registering my litters...but never price pups over $400.
Over the years I have found that people who make you a promise and give you their word that they will invest their time and effort and then their money into a pup to train it right and give it the chance it deserves are more likely to do just that than someone who puts money in your hand and walks away with a pup.
Not everyone keeps their word...but to some it is a very important thing and they try really hard to do what they said they would.
That's not a "free" thing to the person getting the pup from me....not if they intend to keep their promise. That is a commitment that has value to me.
You guys can theorize and ponder and try to reason anyway you want to justify what to price pups for....thats fine. I'm not saying it's wrong or it should be more or less. I'm just saying personally....i want what's best for the pup...and I want to build a program around people who want what I want for Redbones and I have found that my "method" of selling, partnering, and sometimes giving pups to the kind of people who will give them the best chance to succeed has been working for me and I don't feel poorer or unsuccessful just because I didn't make a bunch of money off of it. I'm not rich by any means...im just a factory worker.
My goal is producing better competition redbones....not to get rich off dogs.
So that's the goal I work towards and I appreciate every single person who has helped me along the way to be a part of reaching that goal. I think we are getting there and some day we will see a lot more Redbones winning the biggest hunts if we stay focused and never give up.
Good luck to everyone.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-28-2017 at 06:16 PM

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11-28-2017 06:13 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
So....are you saying these pups are going to be higher than your normal $500 apiece pup price?

I couldn't remember how we got from future crosses to Shane telling us what he did with his pups so I had to go back to see.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 11-28-2017 at 07:05 PM

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11-28-2017 07:01 PM

Adam Wingler
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I couldn't remember how we got from future crosses to Shane telling us what he did with his pups so I had to go back to see.

But that means you took the bait. I know a guy who asks a bunch of questions when the pot needs stirring, forgot his name though. 🤪

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11-28-2017 07:20 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
As I said, I am not as knowledgeable as the big time breeders. I am curious to see just how many will be willing to spend the money for a high drive bred pup.

I guess this is where the train jumped off the tracks...lol
So now we can get back on topic

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11-28-2017 07:36 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
As I said, I am not as knowledgeable as the big time breeders. I am curious to see just how many will be willing to spend the money for a high drive bred pup.

I must be pretty good at stirring if that is all it took to get your whole philosophy on giving pups away. At least everyone knows now that you give your pups away and don't charge for them. Actually I think that it sounds like a pretty nice philosophy.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 11-28-2017 at 09:32 PM

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11-28-2017 09:23 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

So who else is planning on raising a litter of pups next year?

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11-28-2017 09:34 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Right after you posted what I quoted you went on to say that the way I do things was a nice theory...but you disagreed with it and then told us all what you do to get pups in the right hands...(charge premium prices) so I explained what I do.
I never said I give all my pups away...i said I do what I have to in order to get them into the best hands...sometimes that means not charging someone ...but they still gotta give me their word and make me a promise to give the pup an HONEST chance...and they either have to be a competition hunter or be serious about getting into it if the pup has the ability to win when they get it raised.
Now people know both of our philosophically different approaches to solving the same problem (getting pups into the best hands) and reaching our goals.
It's up to others to decide which they think works better or if they themselves have an even different idea. Whatever way people choose...I hope it's what's best for the pup.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-29-2017 at 12:23 AM

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11-29-2017 12:16 AM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw

Gr.Nt.Ch. Ky Moonlight Breanna x ? .....any suggestions?
[/B]

Grnt nat days ch Moonlight spuds duds mouth drive and balanced

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mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

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11-29-2017 12:04 PM

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Richard Lambert
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Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I actually got to hunt with Spuds Duds one night and he looked real nice and did a good job.

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11-29-2017 01:57 PM

Richard Lambert
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Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Shane, I don't actually worry about "getting pups in the right hands" now. I just concentrate on the ones that I keep and don't worry about what others do with their dogs. I gave that up a long time ago. When they buy a pup, it is theirs to do with as they please.

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11-29-2017 02:02 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Shane, I don't actually worry about "getting pups in the right hands" now. I just concentrate on the ones that I keep and don't worry about what others do with their dogs. I gave that up a long time ago. When they buy a pup, it is theirs to do with as they please.

I see....that explains alot. I guess that's pretty much how most breeders have been over the decades. I guess if it ain't broke...dont fix it.
I used to do the same years ago...but it just wasn't working for me. Had too many pups leaving and never heard of them again. Didn't know if they got a chance, became a pet, or made a good pleasure dog. As a guy trying to breed for better competition dogs...i wasn't able to judge my own success as a breeder. Then when people asked how my dogs were producing I had to say stuff like ...well....i think most went to pleasure hunters or people who wanted pets. I started getting skeptical looks and responses like "why would you breed for competition dogs...and then sell to people who don't competition hunt?"
I didn't really have an answer other than .....well...they go to whoever puts the cash in my hand!
But that didn't sound good to me then, and still doesnt...so I decided to be a maverick and go a different direction. Now I can look people in the eye and tell em that I breed for better competition Redbones and I do my best to get them into the hands of competition hunters who know how to start and finish them....and maybe that's why alot of my pups go on to win hunts and earn titles. Sure many change hands and some make their way into pleasure hunter or big game hunters hands...but almost everyone started out in competition hunter hands if the people were honest with me.
Different strokes for different folkes

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-29-2017 at 07:20 PM

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11-29-2017 07:02 PM

bridger80
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2010
Location: western Pa
Posts: 430

Richard or any of the Ttop guys planning any Ttop heavy breedings for the spring?

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12-01-2017 12:15 AM

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Tony Dominguez
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Jefferson,Tx
Posts: 1108

I�ve got a couple nice crosses on G this year that if everything goes right we�ll be hearing about 😎

Shane I dang sure would like to get another little Bj pup 😉 I wonder if I could do a repeat!

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407 E. Clarksville st
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903-650-4495 call/txt anytime
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Redbone:
All Grand Outlaw G-Man
GRNITECH
GRAND SHOW CH
CHKC GRCH (all time $ leader)
PKC PLATINUM CH (all time $ leader)
2016 RESERVE FALL SUPER STAKE CH (only redbone to ever make the final 4)

Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
2018 top 16 PKC redbone breed
2018 Top 16 PA state race
2019 National Redbone days Champion

Walker:
UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Frost Bite Zoey

UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Dirty Little Tramp
Russ Myer hunt winner $20,000
Final 4 PKC super stakes

Past:
GOLD CH GRCH GRNITECH Classy Cali
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' Outlaw Jack
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Apache Man
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Famous Outlaw Ann
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Tree Burning Moses

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12-01-2017 01:19 AM

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B Weatherford
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Southern IN
Posts: 383

Can I order a free pup?

Shane I would like to have a FREE Pup off Mac and the best female you choose. Female pup preferred. Do you have a way to order them like Burger King? If so, I need big mouth, big motor, and independent and ready to start early. Thanks! Let me know where I need to sign up on agreement. I am sorry I been reading this. I had to.

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12-01-2017 02:11 AM