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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Slick, you are right, it is all a game that we play. And some are serious about it and some just play. It all depends on your personality. Kind of like a nite hunt I guess. Some handlers are serious and some are just there to have fun. That is why you can't just take those lists at face value. But you do need to pay attention to them along with other factors. There are some awfully nice reproducers on the list but there are others like Jet that aren't. And look at Shock. He just now got up there and he can no longer be bred. Most dogs are 3 yrs old before they are titled so a stud is usually 6-8 yrs old before his first pups are old enough unless you retire them and start breeding them at 3 yrs old.

Luckily, between Rodger Shabel, myself, and John Biggert...there are probably 50 or more breedings in storage on Shock so he isn't done reproducing by a long shot. And one of the reasons Shock already had a good number of Nt.Ch. and Gr.Nt.Ch. offspring when he hit 100 pups and made the list is because he has been bred to many high quality females....most of them just in the past 2 years so I'd watch him closely....he will rise on that list pretty fast. I don't own a hair on him...never have...but I hunted him a lot, got beat by him a lot and have bred to him and will breed to him again in the future. He is from a great litter and was a big winner and is a great reproducer in my book.

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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10-05-2017 06:45 PM

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RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Misleading?
10th place current reproducer list for walkers has produced 121 Nite Champions and 76 Grand Nite Champions for 9.35% titled pup ratio
10th place Redbone current reproducer has
1 Nite Champion and 0 Grand Nite Champions for a .55 % titled pup ratio
That is embarrassing and hard to even look at. We may not have the overall numbers...but we don't need high overall numbers to improve our %
We just need to do a better job of breeding the right dogs and stop making a bunch of crosses that never produce even a single pup capable of earning a title.
Too many people make a cross because they can...then hope for a miracle. That is not the way to breed better Redbones. We need to use predictable and repeatable proven breeding practices and selective targeted breeding. There are only a limited number of high quality females out there that have the traits needed to produce competition winners at higher percentages. Even once those are identified...the breeder still has to do their homework and select the right stud for the best match with that particular females traits. It's not as simple as breeding winner to winner or coon dog to coon dog as lot of people like to say. Yes, chances are once the right parents are matched...they likely will both be coon dogs and should be winners. But many of those winner to winner crosses that were not made selectively beyond the coon dog and winner criteria never produce any winners that title. We must dig deeper and match traits and rate individual dominance of those traits to get the most out of a cross.

Thanks for posting but for me its sorta like what Richard said it all depends on personality. For me its not embarrassing that a dog sleeping at my kennel has a .55 reproducers rate because I simply could care less about numbers. For one I only owned the dog for the latter part of his life so a lot of the pups he has had were out of my control. Either way it does not matter to me.... I guess Richard is right some people "just play" for example the last litter of pups I raised of of him he had 8 one died, 4 I sold to bear hunters because I live in bear hunting country, 1 to a family and kids that wanted it for a pet, and the other two were raffled off at a poundage coon hunt out in Ohio. For me I enjoy raising the pups and could care less about him being on the list...... if a bear hunter is going to give a pup a good chance to make a nice hound I am satisfied, if a kid is going to grow up with the dog and enjoy the dog for years to come I am satisfied. I could care less about what my dogs numbers look like in a magazine which all goes back to what Richard was saying it just depends on the persons personality. To me numbers mean nothing but then again I am not a serious breeder Its just a hobby that I enjoy.

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MY HOUSE PETS

GRCH GRNITECH Moonlight Big D HTX (RED). (RIP old buddy we sure had some good times)

PKC CH GRCH GRNITECH GRWCH Good Nite Little D (RED) (Hound Dog Classic ARCH sectional highest scoring grand night and king of hunt)
(Cast wins @ Grand American, 3rd place at southern red days as a 1 year old, 5th place at va state hunt as a 1 year old) UKC Triple Grand!

CH NITECH WCH A Double Shot of Brandy (RED) (Va state water race tree ch, make Nitech in 3 back to back hunts)

FCH GRNITECH CH River Runnin TIP HTX (TW) (9th place at Grand American, Cast wins @autum oaks, Va state, southern redbone days, southeastern treeing walker days)

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10-05-2017 09:18 PM

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cooter_hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Hmm

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10-05-2017 09:31 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Oh my goodness, isn't D a littermate to Shock and Deanna? If you are happy with D and his pups then that is what counts.
I am kinda like you. I think that Wendy is a pretty good reproducer but she is not on that list and might not ever be on it. I am happy with her pups and I like them. To me that is what counts.

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10-05-2017 10:50 PM

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cooter_hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

I think it�s great you would donate pups for raffles in this breed people have to like the owner more then the dog to breed to it lol but the fact that like you said you give 3/4 of your dogs away to people that never put them in a hunt heck most never even have to tree a coon. You don�t push big d pups to hard yourself or turn down money to breed him and don�t turn away females because you don�t think it would be a good cross. you like owning a good coon dog and he�s arguable one of the best from his litter from everytging I�ve heard you just like raising his pups and getting them to people who WANT them more power to you!! I�m far from saying you�re doing anything wrong. I think if you�re happy doing what your doing to hell with everyone else. but with that being said and absolutely no disrespect intended the fact a dog like big D with an owner who don�t care what he breeds or where the pups go or even if they ever tree a coon because he knows he owns a coondog and just likes raisning pups and is on paper a top 10 reproducer in the breed is CRAZY!!!

Do you realize out of a possible 55 spots for dogs that met criteria in the male CURRENT ONLY reproducers side of the list 10th for redbone would be 53rdth? Beating out only 4th and 5th place Plott. I�m not saying everyone could or even should wanna make a run at the list but I know 3 dogs on the list who don�t even WANNA be on it but they�re the only dogs with 100+ pups on the ground so they are automatically considered one of the best in the breed. And I know how hard the guys work to get the females on it and keep it on and to basicly get a top 10 title for showing up with a male and 100 pups is a real bummer
I�m not meaning if your dog is on or off the list it sucks or isn�t a good reproducer because freaks happen and plenty of good dogs don�t come from dogs on the top 10 list and I�m not even saying it�s a very big deal but I�m staying the fact that we can�t get enough hype in the breed to get 10 stud dog owners who actually WANT their dog to be considered one of the top ten reproducers in the breed who could make more then 1 nitech for every 200 pups they produce is what�s embarrassing

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10-05-2017 11:51 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

As I said, the #'s for the Top 4 are as good as the #'s for the Top 4 of the other breeds. The fact that the majority of Redbone owners and breeders don't care about the "hype" shouldn't be embarassing. That may be why most people own and hunt Redbones. They are just having fun and don't care what others think as long as their dog pleases them. I think that is what a lot of Redbone people base their breeding decisions on. Not the "hype", but what dogs or people they like themselves.

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10-06-2017 12:09 AM

RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

I agree jessy I understand why people breed to try to get on the list it's weather or not they enjoy gaining a big ego for them and there dog or simply enjoy raising a litter. But like Richard sayed there is no embarrassment period when it comes to the .55 when you know a majority arnt in the hands of competition hunters. It's all in what you enjoy I'm not bashing anyone I just don't spend the time it takes to place my pups I raise um play with um and if some bear hunter coon hunter or city slicker wants to give me 400 or 500 bucks and there happy so am I. No embarrassment hear about that. Two different techniques to raising pups. Just like baseball you got the pros and then you got the county leagers.

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10-06-2017 01:23 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
As I said, the #'s for the Top 4 are as good as the #'s for the Top 4 of the other breeds. The fact that the majority of Redbone owners and breeders don't care about the "hype" shouldn't be embarassing. That may be why most people own and hunt Redbones. They are just having fun and don't care what others think as long as their dog pleases them. I think that is what a lot of Redbone people base their breeding decisions on. Not the "hype", but what dogs or people they like themselves.

Maybe people don't breed in an effort to get on the list. Maybe their goals are much higher than just making a list.
I wonder if the reason we don't see Redbones in final four pictures at world championships is because so many Redbone people are not that serious about winning and just don't care?
That seems to always be the common theme whenever we look at any means of measuring winners in this breed....a lot of people just act like it's not all that important to them. And if somebody comes out and says winning in competition and producing more and bigger winning redbones should be an important goal if your a Redbone hunter who competition hunts...the response from a lot of people is that it's just not something that's important to them.
I wonder why we seem to have so many in the Redbone Breed that feel like that and how does that effect our breed going forward?
I know winning isn't everything....but in any sport where individuals compete against each other and a score is kept and a winner is crowned....one would think more participants would be serious about producing more dogs that can win.

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10-06-2017 01:37 AM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

There are probably quite a few that are serious about producing good dogs. They just aren't seious about "playing the game" or getting on that list.

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10-06-2017 01:58 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
There are probably quite a few that are serious about producing good dogs. They just aren't seious about "playing the game" or getting on that list.

So how do you produce lots of winners .....and stay off the list?
It's a lot of work planning, breeding, raising, starting and winning with pups from the same few dogs. Why do people think that's a game?
The lists just show a record of accomplishments (titles) earned by the dogs in the breed. It amazes me how so many want to talk about their dogs when they make the list...but act like the lists don't mean anything if their dog isn't on it.
The lists are there year after year and the dogs change on them...sometimes monthly. But certain dogs seem to stay on them...because they keep reproducing offspring that keep winning and earning titles.
The lists "should" be looked at as a tool for breeders and pup buyers....not a game to be won.
And we can say that the top 4 Redbone reproducers are equal in % to the top 4 walkers.....but that's about where the comparison ends because if they were equal in ability....then we would see more Redbones in final four pictures of world championship and Redbones winning big money hunts dominated by walkers year after year. So maybe it's time for Redbone breeders to get serious if they really want to win competition hunts with Redbones and start using the tools we have available to us as breeders to make better competition specific crosses and produce more dogs that can win. And the goal shouldn't be to make some list...it should be to win big hunts with the toughest competition.
The list is but a by product of a dog or it's offspring winning competition hunts and earning titles...and as a breed we would see more of that if more people would take breeding and competing a little more seriously. Maybe that's not for everyone....but when I see guys write on here that they just don't care and it's not important to them....after seeing them at competition hunts month in and month out for years now....it sounds more like an excuse. Who spends that much money and that kind of time on something they are not serious about or don't really care about?
That confuses me. I understand that coming from pleasure hunters...but not from anyone who competition hunts as many weekends a year as most of those posting on this thread. I think a lot of them are more serious about winning with redbones than they are letting on here...

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-06-2017 at 02:31 AM

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10-06-2017 02:24 AM

RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

My point exactly the world of coon hunting does not revolve around the competition dogs maybe wherever ur from Shane it is all about winning but most of the guys my way won't even look at competition hunt because there not interested in competing they just like to listen to a dog track and tree that's the point..... there is two ways ppl look at all of this...some us are very serious about competing and some of us quite frankly don't care as much..... I'm not trying to make a big deal out of this I was just stating that there is nothing to be embarrassed about when I don't care where my pups go as long as there not abused and ppl pay...I just enjoy raising a litter. I'd say if we would look in my area at the margins of competition hunters/to pleasure hunter it would be 1/4 that's just based off our coon club numbers of how many show up at out night hunts and our pleasure hunts. A lot of these guys are hunting some mutt they picked up at a chicken sale and there's a few that would wax a lot of the registered dogs at our night hunts.

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10-06-2017 02:59 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Ya....we are from different areas. I have Russ bellar 30 miles away and Brian Whitted 20 miles away and everything is about competition here....it has to be if you want to beat the caliber of dogs I draw even in little local hunts. I've always said I am strictly a competition hunter...and that's who these lists track and who they can help. I'm not really speaking to pleasure hunters because they probably don't have any use for these lists.

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10-06-2017 03:28 AM

cooter_hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Don�t get me wrong Richard and Brandon I don�t mean YOUR dogs number are embarrassing I mean it�s embarrassing we can�t have a race with 10 male dogs and have it be competitive with just 10 other people.I like the redbone breed because redbone days is like walker days light lol I like being able to show up with a couple mediocre dogs, not win a dang thing and still have fun listening so a cast of 4 redbones out working tracks treeing some coon and bs�ing with other redbone guys who don�t care about a CW as much as seeing good dog work. Heck I have more fun riding around with Richard one night at American Days and redbone days then I did actually hunting this year just joking around and talking. I don�t necessarily want a bunch of Brian whitted and curt ahrings showing up and turning redbone days nasicly into Walker days where everyone is to serious. I like to think of redbone days as like a handicap hunt for all of us that get beat up on and made fun of going to all the other big hunts and finally being able to make fun of ourselves. As for the hype maybe that was a poor choice of word but it would just be nice to have another race IN THE BREED to be competitive at. I was winning the performance race almost all year and knew after doc got a few other cast wins it was close but with Ukc being so far behind on updating the lists it was nerve wracking and literally the day I thought it was in the bag, the absolute last day of the year Brent and Brian find a hunt on New Year�s Day with 17 dogs entered and win it and end up blowing ridge out of the water. Yeah it sucked to loose but it was way more fun then I thought it was gonna be when I started it last year. I congratulated Brent and Brian said good race and good luck at the world and I just think if more redbone guys could even ACCIDENTALLY end up in a race like I did and have it come to the wire like that they wouldn�t have to buy into the whole competition life like some of us but give them a little more incentive to maybe go a little harder at whatever they wanna try and win be it reproducers list or performance race or purina race $kc rave or national grand nitech redbone or world champion redbone or even just a couple cast wins at redbone days

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10-06-2017 04:04 AM

cooter_hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

And as for you Richard for a guy who doesn�t care about hype or winning or reproducing you certainly seem to surround yourself with some dang nice Wendy pups and some even better partners and friends when it comes to comp dogs 😉😉

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10-06-2017 04:07 AM

RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

Jessy I was really never arguing with you this whole time I understand ur concern for the number required to make the list considering that it's hard to get ahold of a very nice redbone female to breed to...the point I was making was toward Shane he had no right to say it's embarrassing for my dog and me to be to be at .55 when it's none of his business what I'm breeding him to.....if he was so bothered about it then he can come down here and buy him and do as he pleases but for now if I got a pretty poodle here that I'd enjoy raising a litter of of that's my business not someone else's to say that I should be embarrassed.

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10-06-2017 04:23 AM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick, I just like hunting them. It is very satisfying to listen to a young dog do a good job when you owned and hunted it's mother, grandmother and great grandmother. When I listened to Rhonda work a cold bad feeder track up tonight and put a coon at the end, it brought back many memories of her great grandmother, Sally. It was a beautiful bright moonlit night. That is what drives me now. But there was a time when I was driven by races so I can understand what you are talking about. I even had a dog back then that won a couple of them. His name was Mongo.

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10-06-2017 04:28 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by RIDDLEBERGER
Jessy I was really never arguing with you this whole time I understand ur concern for the number required to make the list considering that it's hard to get ahold of a very nice redbone female to breed to...the point I was making was toward Shane he had no right to say it's embarrassing for my dog and me to be to be at .55 when it's none of his business what I'm breeding him to.....if he was so bothered about it then he can come down here and buy him and do as he pleases but for now if I got a pretty poodle here that I'd enjoy raising a litter of of that's my business not someone else's to say that I should be embarrassed.

I wasn't talking about your dog specifically Brandon....i was talking about the 10th place dog in the breed for that last 4-5 years having such a low % because of that 100 pup minimum. I dont understand why we put rules in place that promote quantity over quality and we recognize dogs on a list that only have one titled pup out of over 100 pups and we dont have rules that allow those lists to show dogs that have 5 or 6 titled pups out of only 40-60 total pups. Clearly something needs to change because that does not help breeders or serve the breed well at all. Some years we didn't even have 10 Redbones in the whole country with 100 or more pups that even had a titled pup so we couldn't even have a top 10 for the current reproducers list in this breed. That is embarrassing to me as a Redbone hunter. This thread isn't about individual dogs it's about the lists, it's requirement to get on the lists and whether or not it may actually be working against the betterment of the breed as far as breeding competition Redbones. You just happen to have the 10th place dog...but there is no difference between him or the 2 or 3 above him...it goes to the same point. If you read everything I have written that should be clear.

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10-06-2017 04:58 AM

RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

Must have miss understood then seemed pretty specific when you said the tenth dog at .55 must have just been a sheer luck that it happens to be mine. Sorry for the misunderstanding

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10-06-2017 05:12 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Did you read the whole post?
It isn't about any one dog...its about the list for the Redbone Breed. I never said you should be embarrassed of your dog...i said as a Redbone person I am embarrassed that our breed cannot even have a top 10 list that doesn't have to use dogs that only have one titled pup just to have a top 10 list of current reproducers.
I never named your dog as the reason for this or anything like that. If I didn't think your dog wasn't good and believed he could reproduce...why would I have bred one of my Grand Nite Champion females to him in the last year??? That semen from your dog was purchased from Ron Swann and I paid good money for it and still offered to give you a pup from the cross for free...and now you are saying stuff like this to me after I chose your dog to breed one of my best females to?
When I choose to breed one of my best females to a stud...i do my homework and I selected your dog for good reason and it didn't have anything to do with any list....and now your twisting what I said ...and the whole point of this thread to make it sound like I singled out and attacked your dog in some way because I don't like him...which never happened. Its not very wise to do that to someone that has reached out to you to breed and offered you a free pup if you want people with good females to breed to your stud...
I was going to use the other Breeding of Moonlight Big D semen I have in storage on another proven reproducing Grand Nite Champion female I own...but since you say you dont really care about all this stuff that I think is prerty impprtant to the breed..maybe its just best if I sell it....so if anyone is interested send me a pm....its stored at Nevergone.

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10-06-2017 05:24 AM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick, just think about the #'s. Ten studs would have to breed about 12 females each to get their 100 pups. Do you think that there are 130 nice Redbone females that are excellent reproducers? And who is going to buy those 1,000 Redbone pups?
You can be embarrased by my dogs #'s. I am a little embarrased myself so I understand. It would be nice if we could get over the fact that y'all are embarrased and get back to the discussion of why Redbone studs don't have better #'s.
And it wouldn't bother me if they dropped the # of pups required for a stud to make that list. It is a sign of the times. There are fewer hunters today and fewer pups being sold.

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10-06-2017 02:10 PM

cooter_hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Yes I agree the number should be lowered because EXACTLY like you said people only need a new pup every 5 years we will say because some will be sold shot or die when they are younger and some people will get a good one and hunt it for longer even some of the pups from the best males and females paid up in all programs for $400 are having to give away the last few in the litter because the interest just isn�t there...I was floored when Jared said he still had a few left of his last litter at the time....so maybe the problem isn�t the dogs themselves and it lies with there isn�t a market for 1,000 redbone pups a year? Trouble is as a breeder you strive for quality but Ukc is a business why would they want to change the numbers of pups needed to make the list and drastically reduce the number of dogs that get registered every year. Be a bad business move in the money sense. Can�t inagine they�d get good feedback by having to raise the price of registering a litter to compensate striving for quality over quantity to make a small number of breeders happy by being able to get there dog on a list that doesn�t even pay anything for being number 1 on right? So maybe we�re just destined to keep on keeping on like we have been for years and just keep slowly making improvements one generation at a time

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10-06-2017 03:05 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Are we making improvements? You are being pretty optimistic now. Only 3 Redbones even made it to Ga this year. There wasn't a Redbone in the Top 16 or Grand Masters Final Four at AO this year. We will see how they do in Salem in 2 weeks.

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10-06-2017 03:17 PM

RIDDLEBERGER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Virginia
Posts: 81

I don't care who you sell it to haha I could care less to be honest. I got all I need off of him hopefully someone that buys it will enjoy it. I bought Wayne's last breeding to billy the kid about a year ago might breed it to a buddy's bluetick of mine.

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10-06-2017 05:57 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I didn't ask your permission...just made a statement.
I've never told you what to do and have only tried to help you. First by helping you get some semen on your dog and then breeding to your dog and offering to give you a pup for free that others would have paid dearly for after you asked me for one, and I also set you up with a nice engraved squaller and extra reeds for it and I have never asked you for anything in return.
And then you act like this?
That's ok...maybe you misunderstood what I was saying...but whatever it is you have clearly taken everything that I have done the wrong way.
So good luck to you Brandon I wish you and D well.