Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Johnson
that judge is now on the barred list also. think about what you do before you do it. Was the cast win worth that?

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Ok from now on everybody gets the ax but when people quit showing up at the hunts better hope you got a big enough poochie dog redgistry to pay the bills jmo.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

When you see comments on here for different things and people say young hunters or anybody should know the rules before they enter a hunt and all they want to do is scratch them is probably why hunt numbers are down. If the entire cast is scratched for one person not signing or putting all the plus or minus on the score sheet before it's turned, I'll bet that slick handler that broke it off in some young hunter would make sure all the plus and minus are correct before he turns in the score sheet. They recently had a pound hunt in a near by county and I understand about 50 people showed up to hunt, when they were questioned as to why they didn't hunt in the local UKC or $KC hunts it was because of all the bad things they had heard about those hunts. So keep on scratching people for minor mistakes and not allowing the MOH to make corrections to the score sheet and soon you'll be only one at the hunt, so I guess you can be the MOH, guide and judge on your cast by yourself. I agree that people should know the rules, but everybody is subject to making a mistake.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I appoligize for the way I am coming off but ole tar is feeling the pressure a lot of clubs are feeling Kalamazoo is a long ways from Marrietta Oklahoma and often times I wonder if the upper brass really realizes or cares about the struggle it takes to keep the doors open all I got to say and I mean this it is at the point were it almost ain't worth it anymore there is not enough meat on the bone who's fault is it I don't know but it needs changes I got a list of them you know what it's just like it used to be it worked and the clubs flourished back then and it would work now so with that I appoligize again it don't matter what ole tar thinks anyways.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I too was a master of hounds at our local small club event and had this very issue come up. This was my dilemma; do I tell this young man (relatively new to the sport) and tell him why I cannot accept his scorecard and ask him to go outside and make the necessary change, or do I take the card, follow the rules as they are written (to my understanding) and scratch the man that won the cast and award the cast win to the next available (properly scored and documented) dog in his cast? It easy to say what you would do, without really being put in that situation, BUT it is MUCH harder to actually do it when you know it was a honest mistake. If I favor the first option I face the fact that some folks in that clubhouse will see me as a cheater and not willing to follow/enforce ALL the rules as they are written. If I favor the second option, I run the risk of driving away the very newcomers to this sport that we need to keep our sport alive. Neither option is favorable for me.

That being said, I followed the rules and scratched that dog for failure to fully complete the scorecard. I then contacted my breed rep and voiced my discontent for the way the rule was written and that it took the ability of the Master of hounds to make a minor adjustment that would not affect the actual outcome of the winner of the cast, much like it was when folks failed to accurately document 120 minutes of hunting time on the score card. I asked my breed rep to vote to repeal this rule as I feel it is unintentionally hurting the beginners to this sport.

I have NO IDEA which way my breed rep voted in this past years rules committee meetings as I'm pretty sure I read where the actual vote of any/all breed reps is NOT public information released to the members of UKC. Therefore It is my understanding we have no way of knowing how our current breed reps voted on this particular rule or any other rule that was brought before the committee. We only get made aware of the number of votes for and against a rule proposal, and not how our individual breed reps actually voted.

Would I like to see this rule changed? Absolutely, and the above mentioned situation is exactly why. That being said, we are STUCK for at least another two years before this rule can be reviewed again. For all that get a bad experience from this rule, I apologize, as even though I did my part to make my breed rep know I didn't like this rule, the new proposal never passed the rules committee meeting at last years AO's. Now I encourage EVERYONE on this board that doesn't like the way this rule is written, to contact your breed rep, voice your displeasure of the rule in the way it is written and enforced, and ask for a change!!

Now we are at a disadvantage when we are not able to find out exactly how our breed reps voted, as without knowing that, it is simply luck of the draw if we vote out any particular breed rep and try to replace them with someone who might share similar values as myself/yourself.

Not that this helps much, but as the rule is currently written, Mr Johnson has given you the correct interpretation of this rule we have to work with.

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

As far as for a scorecard not being signed by a handler when it is turned in is not a scratchable offense , the moh should allow them to sign as they may have been in the woods gathering there dog and had not had a chance to sign when someone brought the card back in so long as they make it back by the deadline, however all scores must be marked +-circle deleted or questioned all dogs that are not are scratched no questions asked, at my club I ask them to look at there card before they turn it in and make sure they have there scores marked and added right ,if they mess up and don't mark them oh well sorry.

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MY OLD DOGS GONE BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Ohio
Posts: 572

You know when I was young Grandma told me not to play around the wood burning stove. I did and got burned. You know how many times I did that again? Never.
My uncle told me not to mess with the cattle prod. I did and got burned, lol. I never did that again either.
My point is every hunt I've been to the MOH has said before the hunt that all scores must have a value. So who's fault is it when we get burned? If a newbie, young or old, gets burned by this rule it is their fault. If that newbie has what it takes to make it in this sport they'll be back and will more than likely not make that mistake again.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

If one of the rules says a MOH can make math corrections, then he should be able to correct that mistake. Why have columns on the right hand side of the score sheet for you to put the minus and plus points if a MOH cannot use that to make sure the scores are right. If all the minus points in that column are added together and subtracted from the points in the plus column to get the total what's the problem. My point is if the scores are transferred from the left side of the score sheet where they were placed as the dogs were called to the right side and where placed in the minus/plus columns and totaled, MOH should have the right to make that math correction under rule 12(a).

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

Rules should be followed but this rule should be overturned, it is abused more than some of you may think, the judge leaves off a +or- on the cast winner and that dog is scratched, the way this rule is a judge can pick what dog wins just by forgetting (so to speak) a +or-! I understand a Handler should make sure it's correct but evan a professional Handler can miss it as was the case at AO.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I hate to come off wrong I told allen one time I will tell you the truth even if it gets me in trouble I will abide by the rules I have to buuuuut 85 percent of the people that come to these hunts around here I know personly and really are a bunch of good guys some of these kids will drive 100 miles just to hunt and I just hate to throw their scorecard in the trash when I can use it as an opportunity to teach them how to do it right so when they go to a big hunt and they are not carrying the card they know how to protect their selfs when you only got 8 or so dogs at a hunt and most of them are kids their ain't no need and standing up and being mr moh I look at as being a teacher and an opportunity to make the sport grow. If I am wrong tell me so!!


Sincerely :Robert Hitt

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Right up front, the cast winner is required to sign the card in order for it to be accepted by the MOH. So he or she, the cast winner, has that card right there in their hands. Now if they dont bother to glance at their scoring column and assure themselves that all point are plussed, minused or circled, well, then that's on them. The judge cant screw nobody here because again, the cast winner has to take the card in their hands and sign it. Its part of the prehunt instructions that we here over and over so there us really no excuse for letting a card get turned in unfinished. It doesnt matter if you are 6 or 60. I have heard of some getting scratched by this rule but I never heard of anyone getting scratched twice by this rule.

Yes, its a dumb rule but how smart do you have to be to deal with it? Not very.

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: La fayette Georgia
Posts: 2144

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Right up front, the cast winner is required to sign the card in order for it to be accepted by the MOH. So he or she, the cast winner, has that card right there in their hands. Now if they dont bother to glance at their scoring column and assure themselves that all point are plussed, minused or circled, well, then that's on them. The judge cant screw nobody here because again, the cast winner has to take the card in their hands and sign it. Its part of the prehunt instructions that we here over and over so there us really no excuse for letting a card get turned in unfinished. It doesnt matter if you are 6 or 60. I have heard of some getting scratched by this rule but I never heard of anyone getting scratched twice by this rule.

Yes, its a dumb rule but how smart do you have to be to deal with it? Not very.

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JOE WILBANKS
423-802-4115
The home where the big time winners come from

UKC PREFORMANCE SIRE Nt ch pkc ch BAM BAM The only one out of WORLD CH BIG D X GRNT SKIPPERS UMFORGIVEN SAIGE she has 21 pups 4nt ch 5 grnt ch thats 42.85%
He is a coon dog!
Nt ch ch Insane Minnie MouseInsane cain x Malden Branch Mouse

HOME OF 2 TIME AQHA HORSE OF THE YEAR
World champion working cow horse snaffle bit
SMART LITTLE LEGEND
ETCHA CHAMPION
HCHA CHAMPION
Top 16 NCHA WORLD Champion
Home of GHSRA All Around Cowboy Champion Chris wilbanks

Jerico Rebel our Movie star horse hes been in three films now 35 years old
Just passed away February 4th 2016

MY OLD DOGS GONE BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN
The one I will allways miss now deceased 01/09/2013
GR CH GRAND NT CH Handosme Trudy
SIRE PKC WLD CH GR NT WHATS UP DOC
DAM GR NT HUTCHINS SUGAR

GRCH GR NT CH COBBLER CREEK WENDY
GR NT STYLISH TUFF - WENDY X STYLISH LIPPER
GR NT STYLISH TACK - WENDY X STYLISH LIPPER

NT CH SOUTHERN STYLE - JP'S HIGH STYLE X HOUSES LADY

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

Jim, why does the MOH have the right to correct math mistakes, if you can't add 2+2 before you turn in the score card then you should be scratched for sleeping through math class in school, also all cell phones have calculators on them so turning in a score card with the math wrong should also get you scratched. If you were scratched for poor math skills, I'll bet you add them up correctly next time. If all totals add up correctly in the proper columns the MOH should have the authority to correct that minor mistake. I know it's a rule, what I want to know from the UKC what's so important about this rule that a MOH cannot use some common sense and his authority as a MOH to correct this error.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

That's a good question but in the meantime, it's a well known rule, the MOH tells us about it at every event so there really is no excuse for signing an uncompleted scorecard.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

I wish i was as smart as jim. Wish i would have had more time to look over the score card before i singed it, as a guide and cast winner we agreed the judge would take the card back while I helped gather dogs, sure is funny that the cast winner had a + missing. Have a good day.

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Registered: Nov 2012
Location:
Posts: 240

quote:

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Originally posted by nitehunter2004
I wish i was as smart as jim. Wish i would have had more time to look over the score card before i singed it, as a guide and cast winner we agreed the judge would take the card back while I helped gather dogs, sure is funny that the cast winner had a + missing. Have a good day.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Northeast Georgia
Posts: 316

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Johnson
that judge is now on the barred list also. think about what you do before you do it. Was the cast win worth that?

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Y'all made your point now us MOHs will go right by the book we will thin out the competition where you big timers can win congradualations it ain't how you get it as long as you get it right !!!

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
.........as long as you get it right !!!

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I am not for bending the rules. Here is were I am at I probly started competition hunting in the late 70' s even back then the men in our club taught you how not to make the mistakes to me the local most of the time 10 dogs or less hunts are for learning or teaching proper hunt procedures or better yet life's values it gives you time to prepare these young folks for the bigger events I can't remember how many clubs I have help start I have just started a new club and it will be run honest the old way plenty to eat , fellowship , and a good old fashioned coon hunt when they drive a long ways I need them to make a club survive I need the young guides , judges , ect but I hate putting the hammer to them when I got all 4 cast members there looking at me and all I got to do is ask them how it is supposed to be if they are all in agreement fine if not sombodys trying to pull the hanky panky or they don't agree I put the hammer to them and don't mind doing it maybe ukc needs to talk to the ones out here trying to make this work more I for one was not satisfyed with who done my voting for me jmo.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
.......I just hate to throw their scorecard in the trash when I can use it as an opportunity to teach them how to do it right ....... I look at as being a teacher and an opportunity to make the sport grow. If I am wrong tell me so!!

Sincerely :Robert Hitt

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4254

quote:

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Originally posted by gacoonchaser
it is a handlers responsibility to make sure there part of the scorecard is filled out correctly?? not saying this is right but,how did he get barred?

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I know some well renound coonhunters famous ones that got by with murder in the past year in this organization because of who they were in the south we call that double standreds don't mistake our silence of us being stupid I am trying to tell you how many of us feel in a positive way I am a ukc guy I follow the rules to a tee but if you keep wacking people there's other kc' s that would love to have them. Sooner are later the rules will change it won't matter who is voting it will be when it starts hurting the the kc's wallet if they don't I just tell it like it is like it or not I am out here trying to hold this thing together.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Newton, North Carolina
Posts: 12262

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
I know some well renound coonhunters famous ones that got by with murder in the past year in this organization because of who they were in the south we call that double standreds don't mistake our silence of us being stupid I am trying to tell you how many of us feel in a positive way I am a ukc guy I follow the rules to a tee but if you keep wacking people there's other kc' s that would love to have them. Sooner are later the rules will change it won't matter who is voting it will be when it starts hurting the the kc's wallet if they don't I just tell it like it is like it or not I am out here trying to hold this thing together.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Some of these kids ( anything under 35yrs old is a kid to me ) and got a pretty good dog they ain't ever seen a score card before they go out and tree 3 or 4 coons all of them in that cast come in happy and you throw their card in the trash and send them home boy that's going to make numbers go up for sure.

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